1925 Photo - Which Medals? And Who Is He?

[Ken Lees]

The attached photo was taken in 1925, after the 9th Bn. of the King's Liverpool Regiment (T.F.) had been converted to Royal Engineers.

 

Can anyone tell me what medals this man is wearing? I think I see a Trio, MSM & TFEM/TEM. Any other suggestions?

 

And his rank?

 

I am trying to identify him, so any suggestions are welcome.

 

[EDIT] Having looked at my database of men who served in the 9th King's Liverpool Regiment (5386), who were awarded the MSM (11), who were TF, not regular soldiers (10), who were not discharged during the war (9) and who were not Mentioned in Despatches )no oak leaves on the Victory ribbon), I have reduced the candidates to just 3.

 

So:

1191/330072 RQMS WIlliam O'Brien

1686/330178 Sgt Thomas Muncaster

2273/330428 L/Cpl Richard Edward Gregson

 

The ranks I have recorded above were their wartime ranks as far as I have been able to ascertain them, so not conclusive for 1925.

 

I have checked Ancestry for service papers and found none, which is not surprising if they were still serving in 1925.

 

Any idea where I go from here?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited 5 November , 2018 by Ken Lees

[Gardenerbill]

Hi Ken,

Looks to me like Star, BWM, VM, MM and TF Efficiency.

[mancpal]

If it was a MM then wouldn’t it be ahead of the star. I think it is an MSM and the above post may be missing an S.

 

Simon

[Gardenerbill]

Yes but the stripes look a bit narrow for an MSM?

[Ken Lees]

Edited the original post to add information

[Gardenerbill]

What are the white disks near the bottom of his sleeves?

[GWF1967]

4 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

What are the white disks near the bottom of his sleeves?

Warrent Officers crown badges?

[Ken Lees]

Just bringing this back to the top in the hope of eliciting a suggestion or two to help identify this Warrant Officer.

[nhclark]

On 05/11/2018 at 22:09, mancpal said:

If it was a MM then wouldn’t it be ahead of the star. I think it is an MSM and the above post may be missing an S.

 

Simon

 

On 05/11/2018 at 22:46, Gardenerbill said:

Yes but the stripes look a bit narrow for an MSM?

I don't think that there's much doubt that it must be the Meritorious Service Medal. The order of wearing left-to-right is then correct.

Furthermore, you can date the award of the medal to sometime after the middle white stripe was added. Howard Williamson says after June 1917, and quotes Army Order 238 of August 1917 in another place on the same page (page 444 of Volume 1 of The Great War medal Collectors Companion).

 

I'm not an expert in photography, but I think you'll find that the white on the medal ribbons (and elsewhere) is accentuated because the photograph is somewhat over-exposed, causing the negative to be too dark and lose detail that way. I can see only "white" on the Star ribbon, and unless you knew the correct order of the medals you would not be able to pick the BWM. Over-exposure is fairly obvious when looking at the men's faces - unless they were heavily sun-tanned at the time.

 

Perhaps you can pick which man it is by the date on which their MSMs were awarded? Is it possible that the man in question has been transferred into the battalion having won his medals with another unit (or other units) - that would certainly complicate matters, but perhaps your database takes care of that?

Edited 15 November , 2018 by nhclark

[Ken Lees]

4 hours ago, nhclark said:

 

I don't think that there's much doubt that it must be the Meritorious Service Medal. The order of wearing left-to-right is then correct.

Furthermore, you can date the award of the medal to sometime after the middle white stripe was added. Howard Williamson says after June 1917, and quotes Army Order 238 of August 1917 in another place on the same page (page 444 of Volume 1 of The Great War medal Collectors Companion).

 

I'm not an expert in photography, but I think you'll find that the white on the medal ribbons (and elsewhere) is accentuated because the photograph is somewhat over-exposed, causing the negative to be too dark and lose detail that way. I can see only "white" on the Star ribbon, and unless you knew the correct order of the medals you would not be able to pick the BWM. Over-exposure is fairly obvious when looking at the men's faces - unless they were heavily sun-tanned at the time.

 

Perhaps you can pick which man it is by the date on which their MSMs were awarded? Is it possible that the man in question has been transferred into the battalion having won his medals with another unit (or other units) - that would certainly complicate matters, but perhaps your database takes care of that?

 

I agree with your analysis of the medals.

 

As far as the date of the award is concerned, I suspect that anyone serving when the ribbon design changed, would have changed the ribbon. That applies equally to the award of the TFEM. I don't see a central yellow stripe, nor thin edge stripes on that one, yet the shape clearly suggests TFEM/TFM.

 

It is always possible that the man was posted from another unit, but I am limiting my search to the three men named above initially.

[Medaler]

5 minutes ago, Ken Lees said:

 

It is always possible that the man was posted from another unit, but I am limiting my search to the three men named above initially.

 

I presume you have searched the London Gazette to see if any of your 3 "suspects" were  awarded the MSM?

Mike

[Ken Lees]

3 minutes ago, Medaler said:

 

I presume you have searched the London Gazette to see if any of your 3 "suspects" were  awarded the MSM?

Mike

 

All three were awarded the MSM.

 

In the battalion:

11 men were awarded the MSM

Only 6 of those were not also awarded an MID, leaving 5 candidates

1 was discharged before the end of the war (wounds), leaving 4 candidates

1 was a regular and was awarded the LSGC, not the TFEM/TEM

That leaves 3 candidates

 

[Medaler]

1 minute ago, Ken Lees said:

 

All three were awarded the MSM.

 

In the battalion:

11 men were awarded the MSM

Only 6 of those were not also awarded an MID, leaving 5 candidates

1 was discharged before the end of the war (wounds), leaving 4 candidates

1 was a regular and was awarded the LSGC, not the TFEM/TEM

That leaves 3 candidates

 

 

Ah-ha! - That's a well travelled road then! Sorry, couldn't see the LG being used as a potential eliminator anywhere else in the thread.

 

Regards,

Mike

[nhclark]

I don't know about changing the ribbon on a medal already issued - I'm a bit doubtful that anyone would do that, or even be entitled to do it, and I don't recall ever having seen that discussed. Very interesting point.