RWF collar badge as cap badge

[Muerrisch]

 

In the recently published Badges of Kitchener's Army the author, David Bilton, says that 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th battalions wore a collar badge as cap badge until uniform cap badges were available.

I know that 3rd [Special Reserve] battalion used pressed tin discs "3 RWF with a crude red dragon on white"

 

The book has major weaknesses with cap badges, as discussed on the British Badge Forum, which is a pity as the publication by Pen & Sword is handsomely illustrated and represents a lifetime's obsession.

[FROGSMILE]

Nevertheless, I learned some years ago to my surprise that some of the Service battalions used regimental OSD collar badges in their head-dress.

[clive_hughes]

I think the suggestion that those battalions in the 38th Welsh Division wore the collar badge in their caps comes from the 1920s Regimental Records of the RWF volumes.  Author Dudley Ward gives it a little mention of its own either in the first (France & Flanders) 1914-18 volume, or at the end of the second (Other Theatres) one. 

 

Nothing about the use of such badges appears in the compendious Welsh Army Corps papers dealing with the raising & equipping of the 38th Div. and its reserves.  Other than the generic Recruits Badge the only insignia item I recall is a suggestion for a 38th Div. Cyclist Company shoulder-title.  

 

Can't say that I've otherwise ever seen or heard of the ORs collar badge use in this way in any postcards or photos or accounts, but you may well have access to better sources than I do! 

 

I assume the ones we're talking about are of brass; much smaller than the standard cap badge; and maybe even quite plain in design?  Can you let us see an image of the sort of thing we're talking about here please?

 

Clive  

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, clive_hughes said:

I think the suggestion that those battalions in the 38th Welsh Division wore the collar badge in their caps comes from the 1920s Regimental Records of the RWF volumes.  Author Dudley Ward gives it a little mention of its own either in the first (France & Flanders) 1914-18 volume, or at the end of the second (Other Theatres) one. 

 

Nothing about the use of such badges appears in the compendious Welsh Army Corps papers dealing with the raising & equipping of the 38th Div. and its reserves.  Other than the generic Recruits Badge the only insignia item I recall is a suggestion for a 38th Div. Cyclist Company shoulder-title.  

 

Can't say that I've otherwise ever seen or heard of the ORs collar badge use in this way in any postcards or photos or accounts, but you may well have access to better sources than I do! 

 

I assume the ones we're talking about are of brass; much smaller than the standard cap badge; and maybe even quite plain in design?  Can you let us see an image of the sort of thing we're talking about here please?

 

Clive  

 

Hello Clive, good to see you pitch in.  I can assure you that the collar badges were indeed worn in the manner described.  There were/are photos of WW1 RWF Officers in that dress available online.  I shall try to find them again and post them here.

 

RGB (1 RWF 1974-1984).

[Muerrisch]

Thank you both.

 

Three questions.

 

Am I right to believe that there was no such thing as a SD OR collar badge in 1914?

 

Also that the only possible collar badge in this context was the OSD badge?

 

It seems extraordinary that 1000s of officer-quality badges [ 4 battalions' worth according to Bilton] were pressed into service until OR cap badges were produced ...... I cannot envisage such 1000s existing in tailors' stocks. Is there ANY reliable evidence please?

 

My other comment is that surely the 3rd battalion would not have commissioned its scruffy little tin badges if sufficient OSD collars were available ...... as a unit in being the 3rd was ideally placed to assert primacy.

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you both.

 

Three questions.

 

Am I right to believe that there was no such thing as a SD OR collar badge in 1914?

 

Also that the only possible collar badge in this context was the OSD badge?

 

It seems extraordinary that 1000s of officer-quality badges [ 4 battalions' worth according to Bilton] were pressed into service until OR cap badges were produced ...... I cannot envisage such 1000s existing in tailors' stocks. Is there ANY reliable evidence please?

 

My other comment is that surely the 3rd battalion would not have commissioned its scruffy little tin badges if sufficient OSD collars were available ...... as a unit in being the 3rd was ideally placed to assert primacy.

 

I think we have crossed wires here old friend.  I’m referring to officers only wearing the OSD collar badge as headdress insignia, nothing whatsoever to do with ORs, who wore the usual STs.  The only collar badge for ORs (gm universal grenade) was worn officially only on frocks and tunics until 1924, when it was at last formally approved for the slightly recut ORs SD.

Edited 3 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you, that is a relief!

Bilton makes no such distinction ..... scruffy writing  ......... I was not so much misled as amazed at the claim.

Case closed as far as I am concerned,

[Dragoon]

Hello

I've seen many pictures of various Kitchener's Army soldiers wearing whatever they can in their caps if unable to get hold of the cap badge, even buttons.

Perhaps they wore the universal grenade badge as a temporary badge.

Although not a Kitchener's Army unit, I've got a photo of the Yorkshire Dragoons in 1915 before they went to France, some wear the correct blackened rose and crown badge, some wear the brass OR's collar badge, some the White metal QO entwined full dress collar badge and some the brass rose and crown badge, so a  variety, whatever they could get their hand on I suppose.

Hope this helps

 

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Just to be clear, because this is rapidly turning into a hare set running, we are talking about a few RWF Service Battalions that chose specifically to wear their SD collar badges also as their SD cap badge, it was nothing more than that.  I enclose the first two photos that I could find showing this policy in practice alongside one of the badges concerned.

 

If I can find any more such photos I will post them.  There is a particularly fine set showing a group of officers wearing trench-coats and British Warms behind the lines in F&F that show the badges in wear very clearly.

 

Edited 4 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[badger123456]

Very interesting thread. Do you know if Northumberland Fusilier officers did the same thing, i.e. wore collar badges as cap badges?  I have a NF OSD collar with a pin fitting that looks like it could have been used for the same purpose. See pictures

 

Apologies for steering the thread away from the RWF.

[FROGSMILE]

I don’t think so badger, having observed many photos over the years I’ve never seen an NF officer using collar badges as headdress insignia.  However, the best person to ask would be forum member, Graham Stewart.

[Jerry B]

There was a photo recently on ebay of a group of 7th RWF men and one of them appears to have a RWF title under his cap badge on a side cap. Not the same but interesting all the same.

 

I did not buy it but saved the image.

Edited 4 November , 2018 by Jerry B

[Muerrisch]

Frogsmile, you wrote:

 

ORs, who wore the usual STs. 

in the context of RWF service battalions' makeshift cap badges.

 

In 1914 the ST was in two parts, the grenade being the universal, and the letters separate. [I exclude the TF battalions of course]. Am I correct to assume that the makeshift was letters RWF only, and do you have any photos in wear?

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I believe that Service Battalion ORs wore the exact same STs as regulars.  They were categorised as hostilities only regulars anyway.  You would need photos of Service Battalion provenance, which I’m sure can be found.

Edited 4 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

On 03/11/2018 at 18:28, Muerrisch said:

 

In the recently published Badges of Kitchener's Army the author, David Bilton, says that 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th battalions wore a collar badge as cap badge until uniform cap badges were available.

I know that 3rd [Special Reserve] battalion used pressed tin discs "3 RWF with a crude red dragon on white"

 

 

Here is a group photograph of Royal Welsh Fusiliers wearing both official cap badges and the economy button badges.

Sepoy

[Muerrisch]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I believe that Service Battalion ORs wore the exact same STs as regulars.  They were categorised as hostilities only regulars anyway.  You would need photos of Service Battalion provenance, which I’m sure can be found.

 

Thank you, I did not make myself clear.

In that the ST was in two parts, did service battalion ORs who pressed STs into use as cap badges wear BOTH components of the ST on the cap, or only the letters RWF [I assume not the grenade on its own.

 

 

Edited 5 November , 2018 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Thank you, I did not make myself clear.

In that the ST was in two parts, did service battalion ORs who pressed STs into use as cap badges wear BOTH components of the ST on the cap, or only the letters RWF [I assume not the grenade on its own.

 

 

 

I fear we are at cross purposes again old friend, it was not me who mentioned the use of STs as RWF cap insignia in Service Battalions, but fellow forum member ‘Jerry B’, such practice is not something I have ever seen, although it would not surprise me given the shortages initially experienced by Kitchener Volunteers. 

Edited 5 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Frogsmile I took your " I’m referring to officers only wearing the OSD collar badge as headdress insignia, nothing whatsoever to do with ORs, who wore the usual STs."  as meaning using STs as makeshift cap badges.

If not so, is there any evidence of RWF ORs other than the 3rd using a makeshift please?

I address this specifically to the regimental expert.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Frogsmile I took your " I’m referring to officers only wearing the OSD collar badge as headdress insignia, nothing whatsoever to do with ORs, who wore the usual STs."  as meaning using STs as makeshift cap badges.

If not so, is there any evidence of RWF ORs other than the 3rd using a makeshift please?

I address this specifically to the regimental expert.

 

I’m sorry if my words were misinterpreted.  This whole thread was predominantly about certain RWF Service battalions Officers wearing the OSD collar  badge as cap insignia.  The matter of STs was added by ‘Jerry B’.

Edited 5 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you.