KIA date

[norfolk1]

Hi all 

I am confused re KIA date 

CWGC says 1/07/16 SDGW says 2/07/16

How do I tell which is correct 

paul

Edited 2 November , 2018 by norfolk1
spelling

[keithmroberts]

In most cases this is difficult to unscramble. Unless you can find clarity in a war diary there is not much chance. Consider a unit launches say a night attack in the 1st of a month, it turns out difficult and it is late in the day when the battalion is reassembled. The paperwork is not sorted until the next day, and some of those who saw a man killed are themselves either killed missing or wounded.   What gets recorded can be inconsistent. The paperwork goes back through the chain of command and someone thinks - that must be wrong, or misreads an entry.  In most cases we just have to live with the problem.  I would generally use the CWGC date, unless I had very strong evidence to prove it incorrect.

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, norfolk1 said:

Hi all 

I am confused re KIA date 

CWGC says 1/07/16 SDGW says 2/07/16

How do I tell which is correct 

paul

Who is the man in question ?

Craig

[Mark1959]

Keith has it about right. The dates you quote obviously make it even more difficult. Record keeping in such dire circumstances is not a high priority. The first they knew the chap was not there may have been a roll call - and thus impossible to know. Often a War Diary may help give a likely time. if, for instance, they went over the top at 7.30 am and the attack was abandoned at 10 am then a good possibility within those times - or did he linger wounded out in no man's land. Very occasionally the man may be mentioned in the WD - especially if an officer (I once got it to the minute as they went over the top at 5.36 am and it was recorded that he was killed as soon a they got over the parapet). 

So you may achieve possible/probable but only now and then certainty

[norfolk1]

28 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Who is the man in question ?

Craig

Edward John Dyer

[ss002d6252]

The effects register confirms he died somewhere between 1 and 2 of July.

Craig

[norfolk1]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

The effects register confirms he died somewhere between 1 and 2 of July.

Craig

so it could be either no way of really knowing for sure 

Paul

[Stephen Nulty]

I had a similar story a few years back. The War Diary for 6 South Lancs reported that in an assault on Turkish lines, they found the bodies of two named officers who had led a previous attack.

 

CWGC had their date of death as the day AFTER their bodies were discovered. I queried this with CWGC at the time and they stated that their records showed them as being killed on the latter date, in contrast to the dated entry in the War Diary

[Skipman]

21 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The effects register confirms he died somewhere between 1 and 2 of July.

Craig

 

As does his service record.

 

Mikr

[Mark1959]

Reading the 4th Mx War Diary gives some idea of what happened. Going Over the Top at 7.30 am at Fricourt - forward movement ceased by 8.15am. Pretty much after that the battalion were consolidating gains or defending other units. Mention of heavy shelling of positions. Relieved from midday 3rd July. Only on the 4th does it seem a tally was made

Officers 15 killed 4 wounded

ORs: 131 killed, 337 wounded, 15 missing believed killed , 38 missing

That is 550 casualties - that would have been over 50% casualties. 

So clearly unless someone witnessed his end it will never be possible to determine an exact date and time

The WD is worth a read. The diary starts 1/7/1916

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354085

It will least provide context. Early WDs for 4 Mx are also available

The diaries cost £3.50 each 

 

 

 

Edited 2 November , 2018 by Mark1959

[norfolk1]

Hi All 

Thanks for all the info 

Having looked at various documents , army records  he was presumed KIA 1/7/16 I will go alone with that. 

Which ever date, he was a brave man who gave everything .

 

Paul

[Derek Black]

On 02/11/2018 at 08:54, Stephen Nulty said:

I had a similar story a few years back. The War Diary for 6 South Lancs reported that in an assault on Turkish lines, they found the bodies of two named officers who had led a previous attack.

 

CWGC had their date of death as the day AFTER their bodies were discovered. I queried this with CWGC at the time and they stated that their records showed them as being killed on the latter date, in contrast to the dated entry in the War Diary

Some years ago I tried to have an officers date of death changed due to the war diary giving a description of the mans death and a date some days earlier than the CWGC date. They told me it wasn't a good enough source.

I wish I still had the details, but the emails were long ago cleared out.

[norfolk1]

Hi 

Can be confusing  

I have CWGC saying 1/7/16  

I will go with that other information seems to back that date as well

 

Paul 

[ss002d6252]

Where there is a range of dates on which a man could have died the CWGC often go with the earliest and SDGW often goes with the latest. The Effects records often show the entire range.

 

The simple answer if that, without a certain witness to his death, you cannot say for definite when he died. At the moment the three record sets confirm he was alive on 30th June and dead by the 2nd but they can't tell you anything more than that.

 

Craig

[norfolk1]

Hi 

Thank you,  still happy with the 1/7/16, lots of men would have died on the 1/7/16 but put down as 2/716 I am sure 

 

Paul

[norfolk1]

Hi

Just a thought where would the statistics come from? what data would have been used to compile them 

 

Paul 

[Mark1959]

Paul

It would have been the old fashioned method. of a roll call. That would give you the men you had left. The dead would be those you have bodies for or known to have been killed. The wounded those sent to or in the aid posts. Missing believed killed - whereabouts unknown but something leads to suspiscion was killed (e.g known to be near the seat of an explosion). Missing - whereabouts unknown and no one has a clue. The numbers are a best guess at the time. Some of the missing may have turned up later, bodies found etc

[norfolk1]

Hi All 

So just a follow up question 

Where would the CWGC find their details for KIA and as suggested is this  from roll calls 

Paul

[seaforths]

A roll call would establish that someone was missing. That person might be in the medical evacuation chain or on the field wounded, dead or captured. There may have been an unconfirmed sighting of him being killed or still being alive on the 2nd that has muddied the waters. CWGC would have to take dates from different sources depending on the circumstances. Sometimes they amended dates when they concentrated graves but difficult in this case as he seems to be on the Thiepval Memorial.

 

Perhaps there is something in his local newspapers. My grandfather’s cousin shows as KIA on the day of the battle but there are a couple of sad pieces in the newspaper from his grandparents who were his NOK. The first is that they received word from William’s friends at the front that he was wounded in the battle but they think he will be okay. A few days later, another piece appears in the paper that they have received a letter from his Commanding Officer telling them that William has since died of his wounds. On the basis of that evidence, I don’t accept William was KIA. I can’t change the official version but I don’t have to accept it. I accept that William probably died on the day of battle because his wounds were worse than initially thought or that he lay out for some time before bring brought in and as a result his condition worsened. He did not get far enough down the medical evacuation route to be officially given the DOW status. I have since found a few interesting anippets in local papers about the circumstances surrounding the deaths of others that mention sightings. The bush telegraph of the soldiers worked faster than the cogs of officialdom. 

 

It would be difficult to establish a exact date for those killed at the start of the battle of the Somme. I’m not sure what sector Edward was in but in the Beaumont Hamel sector, in the November, because they took and held ground, they were able to bury the dead that had lain out since 1st July. I cannot recall the exact figure that was stated, of those they buried but around a 1000 just for that piece of land alone. The burial officer will have submitted a list and discs for those buried if the discs survived.