New research challenge

[MaxD]

 I was about to post something along the lines that TEW has taken regarding to dates. As I said in my earlier post and as he has found, while 10 Bn were indeed near to Poperinge up to Dec 1917, they moved south a bit early for a November birth to make sense.

 

Referring again to TEW' post, I'd suggest it is well worth looking at 15 Battalion.  A cursory look at their brigade's war diary has them in the Schaap Balie area a little later than 10 Bn, resting and training mostly in Feb/March 1918 and then leaving the area in March.

 

Anyone for a 15 Bn Sgt?

 

Max

 

 

[TEW]

My hunch was veering towards 1st Bn. They were sheet 27.Q.9 & 20 then moved to sheet 28.C.23.c during time frame.

Good find for the farm location but not sure if our man ever saw the farm.

TEW

[MaxD]

23 hours ago, suesalter1 said:

(Schaballie Farm Poperinge).

 

Does all rather depend on where the farm actually was as to which battalion was most likely in the Feb/Mar 1918 time frame.  That said, I submit that this can only be solved by someone recognising the photo, the chances of finding a war diary entry or other military source recording the fact that Sgt Bloggins seems to be spending an awful amount of time down on the farm are vanishingly small.

Opinions are like (insert you own noun) everyone is entitled to one.

 

Max

 

 

[TEW]

I agree it's all a long shot but I'm still uncertain if the farm location has any relevance to the conception moment. I ran out of time to check the Sherwood btns. In 139 and 178 brigades so there's another 8 to check.

TEW

[MaxD]

Suesalter1

 

While Schaap Balie does have a connection to various Sherwood Foresters battalions I will be the first to admit that this may not be Schaballie Farm Poperinge.  Are you able to contact Annie in Belgium to confirm the exact name of the farm, was it as Julian has queried the name of the family perhaps and could she say exactly where it was.  Poperinge could quite easily be shorthand for the area rather than the town.

 

Max

[Brigantian]

Sue

Approaching the problem from a different direction, did Annie’s previous lines of research include a genealogical DNA Test?

Being female, only an autosomal test would be appropriate but any close British matches could offer another avenue of enquiry.

Regards

 

Mark

[The Inspector]

Hi Sue and all,

As Mark suggests a genealogical DNA test would be worth pursuing. I've been amazed with the results.

Regards Barry

[JulianR]

MaxD has said that someone in the Bn might have said Sgt X is spending a lot of time at that farm.  There is perhaps another reason that he able to be there frequently and that is that he held a position of some trust in the Bn and therefore had licence to roam.

 

Is our man in Bn HQ or HQ Coy?

 

I have three suggestions as to positions he might have held, but firstly Gardnerbill has commented on the strap he is wearing, and it goes under his epaulette as if it was attached to something of value that he did not want to lose, a satchel? 

 

Possible positions that would allow him to roam relatively freely

 

1) Provost Sgt

2) Despatch Rider, does the strap attach to his despatch case?  This does not explain the second soldier

3) A member of the QM's staff, possibly a cook sergeant or ration storeman allowed to make local purchase of fresh milk, eggs etc.  The strap hold his money bag, and the second soldier is the driver of the GS Limber to bring the stores back to camp.  This would also allow him plenty of time to talk with his girlfriend, and not have to worry about being missed in camp.

 

Julian

[suesalter1]

Thanks for this valuable feedback. It's certainly given me food for thought. I still can't understand how the author,  John Laffin, can establish that our mystery man served in the 10th Battalion, Sherwood Forrester. As several people have pointed out and I too have checked, the 10th were no where near Poperinge at the time stated. I like the idea of Julian's that he might have had the authority to roam when going about his business, so it's possible he was in the area. The DNA theory has also occurred to me if a bloodline can be proved.

 

I will check with Annie on the actual name of the farm again, to see if we can pinpoint a exact location. Also the name of the family. 

 

Thanks again,

Sue.

[JulianR]

Sue,

 

I did mean that he had authority to roam within a relatively small area, and not more than about ten miles if that.

 

Julian

[TEW]

Sue, can you enquire politely about a few points.

Did most of this liaison (including conception) take place in the town of Poperinghe while Grandmother was a refugee or might the liaison have continued at the farm after ceasing to be a refugee.

Does anyone know where the photo was taken, at the farm, in Poperinghe or elsewhere?

TEW

[Keith Brannen]

Sue,

 

I am wondering if you could perhaps get a better scan of the photo, or at least a better image of the man on the left. His cap badge looks like it has been blurred out (whether intentionally, or not) and I don't see similar shoulder titles. If he comes from a different regiment (and it can be identified) it may have been from the same brigade as the Sherwood Forester, and may help figure out which battalion he might be from.

Edited 2 November , 2018 by Keith Brannen

[suesalter1]

Hello fellow researchers,

 

I have now heard back from the lady in Ypres trying to trace her English grandfather - a Sherwood Forrester's soldier. Her grandmother's name was Marie Vansteenkiste and she was a Belgium refugee. The family were staying on a farm between Abele and Poperinge called Schabaille. I believe this is an area, but she says the farm was close to a brick factory and is now the site of Lissenthoek Cemetery. 

 

I don't know if this is any help to pinpoint the farm or not, but it might give some clue. I know we've established that the 10th Battalion was nowhere near this area in early 1918, but maybe her grandfather was attached to the hospital at Lissenthoek as a dispatch rider/messenger? Without a name though, I think this is an impossible task!

 

Sue. 

[MaxD]

The location is clear enough and I'd say discounts the Schaap Balie area that bugged me earlier.  Julian's general idea that his duties, whatever they were, allowed him to spend time at the farm probably describes the situation best.  In the photo he has some one with him which wouldn't fit a DR but would fit a Sgt from the QM's department collecting rations or buying eggs etc.  Without a name - no real chance.

 

Max

[TEW]

Quote

The family were staying on a farm between Abele and Poperinge called Schabaille. I believe this is an area, but she says the farm was close to a brick factory and is now the site of Lissenthoek Cemetery. 

 

Sorry but the road from Abeele to Poperinge is not where Lissenthoek Cemetery is. I'll see if I can find a Brick Factory but the road and Lissenthoek Cemetery are circa 1000-2000 yards apart.

 

I agree it probably is an impossible task but I like those ones. However, I'm not convinced by some of the suggestions although I don't mind being proved wrong later. I can't get my head around the notion that this infantry man suddenly became a Dispatch Rider? Why not leave that job to the RE Dispatch Riders who knew what they were doing.

 

1st Battalion Sherwood Foresters were in that area in the right time frame so I'll check them for more details.

TEW

[TEW]

Apologies for the slightly poor map.

 

I’ve attached a section of map from Sheet 27 showing Poperinghe to Abeele with the road highlighted. I've not found Schabaille marked on any maps but to quote Sue.

Quote

The family were staying on a farm between Abele and Poperinge called Schabaille. I believe this is an area, but she says the farm was close to a brick factory and is now the site of Lissenthoek Cemetery. 

Lissenthoek Cemetery is 27.L.23.a. Abeele & Poperinghe are marked.

 

Taking the conception dates as between 4/2/1918 – 18/2/1918 the diary for the 1st Sherwood Foresters has the following locations which are marked in red dots on the map.

 

27/1/1918.

The Battn. In billets in STEENVORDE area Q.9.b.0.8.

Identical entry continues to;

4/2/1918.

Battn. marched to billets at EECKE. HQ at Q.20.d.5.6., A Coy. At Q.15.d.4.1., B Coy. At Q.9.b.0.8., C Coy. at Q.2.d.1.1., D Coy. at Q.14.a.9.9.

Battalion remains in EECKE at rest & training until;

11/2/1918.

Battn. Marched to GODWAERSVELDE and entrained for WIELTJE then marched to CALIFORNIA CROSS, sheet 28 C.23.c.3.6

 

I'd say this puts them well within the required area and they are at rest & training in the correct timeframe.

 

I think the simple answer to the bag he's carrying is his SBR bag, wouldn't go out without one!

TEW

 

Edited 28 November , 2018 by TEW
amend image

[MaxD]

Good sleuthing TEW!

 

 

 

Max

 

 

[suesalter1]

Thanks for this TEW! I will forward this info to Annie in Ypres. 

 

Sue.

[JulianR]

A couple of questions:

 

1) Presumably the birth was registered according to Belgian law and the equivalent of a birth certificate issued?  If so what did the birth certificate say as to the fathers name?

2) Did Andre, the son, take his father's Christian name?

3) Were there authorised farms where the Army could buy supplies, where the quality was known or was it a free for all?

 

Looking at the map I think the NE end of the Abeele-Poperinghe road or even the cemetery area are a bit too far for even a QM Sgt to be roaming to find eggs etc.  The MP's had control posts to check soldiers, direct traffic etc., and would be suspicious of a man coming that far away from his Bn.

 

Julian

[TEW]

I've amended my map! Replaced it with the intended one. I'm going to double check the other Sherwoods Battalion diaries but will keep it to late Jan 1918 to mid Feb 1918.

Can't say I know too much about movement restrictions etc but as the battalion were simply In rest or In rest, training 27/1/1918 - 11/2/1918 I suspect the passes were free flowing.

 

If you look at this image these men have similar haversacks but are about to go over the top rather than egg collecting.

TEW

[suesalter1]

Currently investigating one Sergeant A B Lievers M. M. 9291. Probably a long shot, but a possibility.

 

Sue

Edited 28 November , 2018 by suesalter1

[JulianR]

When did Lievers win the MM, I cannot see the ribbon in the photo.  Does not necessarily rule him out.

 

Julian

[JulianR]

A B

Surname:

Leivers

Incident Details:

War Office Daily List No.5615

Incident Date:

11/07/1918

More Information:

Entitled to wear a "Wound Stripe" as authorised under Army Order 204 of 6th July 1916. The terms of this award being met by being named in this list.

Rank:

Company Sergeant Major

Service Number:

9291

Campaign Medals:

Victory Medal
With the information in A B Leivers's record, it is likely that they were entitled to the Victory medal, also called the Inter Allied Victory Medal. This medal was awarded to all who received the 1914 Star or 1914-15 Star and, with certain exceptions, to those who received the British War Medal. It was never awarded alone. These three medals were sometimes irreverently referred to as Pip, Squeak and Wilfred.

Eligibility for this award consisted of having been mobilised, fighting, having served in any of the theatres of operations, or at sea, between midnight 4th/5th August, 1914, and midnight, 11th/12th November, 1918. Women who served in any of the various military organisations in a theatre of operations were also eligible.
Buy Medals

 

British War Medal
With the information in A B Leivers's record, it is likely that they were entitled to the British War Medal for service in World War One. This British Empire campaign medal was issued for services between 5th August 1914 and 11th November 1918.

The medal was automatically awarded in the event of death on active service before the completion of this period.
Buy Medals

Casualty Listed As:

Wounded.

Next Of Kin Address:

Bulwell

Service:

British Army

Primary Unit:

Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire And Derbyshire Regiment)

Archive Reference:

NLS 1918_WList50

[JulianR]

Lawrence A Leivers

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A000947-02558?pid=880928&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1262%26h%3D880928%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DPzZ3730%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PzZ3730&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

[suesalter1]

Full name is Alfred Bruce Leivers b 1886. Wish his first name was Andrew. Give credence to naming the child Andre. 

 

Sue