Questions for Booksellers/Librarians

[Dust Jacket Collector]

Just on a small point re: the above, I don’t think any of the military books being disposed of by local libraries are finding their way to the IWM. From what one hears they’re all being sold off to dealers or dumped in skips.

[Derek Black]

On 31/10/2018 at 10:37, MartH said:

I would be so upset if they scanned the books before disposing of them, especially the super rare ones, but they don't get books.

 

Do you mean Wouldn't? Otherwise i'm confused...

 

Derek.

[Gunga Din]

1 hour ago, Dust Jacket Collector said:

From what one hears they’re all being sold off to dealers or dumped in skips.

 

Is there any hard evidence that a UK public library has dumped books in a skip, or is this hearsay? I am really quite curious to see if there is evidence. 

 

GD

[keithmroberts]

No evidence here, but I ahve visited many local public libraries that sell off their "redundant " stock. The vast majority of this is generally what might be regarded as low grade fiction titles, although I am sure that some gems in fiction must have gone as well. I would like to hope that most of the reference quality material offered literally for pennies  found new homes, but the unsold must have gone somewhere,  either to the companies that collect up unsold books from charity shops, or in some cases it has to be likely that skips were the eventual recipient. Whether any major research institutions were so reckless is indeed an interesting question.

 

I suppose some non fiction titles date quickly - I'm thinking of the large volumes intended as guides to software - I doubt that many "teach yourself Wordperfect" have survived.

 

Surmise, not evidence here. Like others I have some serious volumes including some official histories that started life in public libraries.

[keithfazzani]

Apparently we are awash with unwanted books. Our local doctors has a sort of library. People bring in unwanted books and you can take books away. The charge is 50p for paperbacks and £1 for hardbacks. I have never seen a "rare" book there but have picked up a number of popular WW1 titles. I asked the lady who ran it what they do with books that don't "move". Apparently they get far more books than they can sell and they find charity shops to reluctant take them. So eventually some books are sent for disposal presumably they are "skipped". I find the concept of a book being skipped, any book, really sad. The trouble is that I suspect that such book recyclers will literally judge a book by its cover and any old and dusty book is likely to be thrown away, whatever its rariity. 

[DavidOwen]

38 minutes ago, keithmroberts said:

 

I suppose some non fiction titles date quickly - I'm thinking of the large volumes intended as guides to software - I doubt that many "teach yourself Wordperfect" have survived.

 

 

Apparently not due to the price!

[Gunga Din]

A small amount of googling reveals a number of quite detailed articles on the disposal of books. One university library claims to dispose of 20,000 items every year. An astonishing number. It appears that the disposal of books is systemic across libraries and quite a sizeable business for the companies on the other side. I can only assume that the physical limitations of space (shelves) means that for every new book taken in, one book has to go to make the necessary space.

 

It will be interesting to discover what the IWM Library policy is. 

[seaJane]

Some disposal can be covered by the fact that book X has fallen apart from frequent use, while book Y is British National Formulary 26 superseded by 27 and medical students need the most up to date version. And so on. Most university science libraries are in the business of being "steady-state" sized, up-to-date information providers and not historical collections. The historical collection itself is a relatively new concept - the Bodleian Library disposed of its First Folio of that Mr Shakespeare's works upon its being superseded by the Second Folio.

[Gunga Din]

Like most bookshops, my local library has more books on dieting that books on the Great War. Looking at the stats on the nation's health might suggest no-one is reading the books on dieting either. 

[Guest]

On 03/11/2018 at 14:10, Gunga Din said:

Like most bookshops, my local library has more books on dieting that books on the Great War. Looking at the stats on the nation's health might suggest no-one is reading the books on dieting either. 

 

   That is because there are more fatties than Great War fans in the UK-  this is market led.  Luckily, I fall into both catgories

[Captain RHW]

There is some hope that GW interest is being increased substantially due to the Armistice centenary, and works such as Peter Jackson's films. 

 

Question - with modern scanning technology as good as it is, is it too much to hope that libraries might be able to be provided with the resource (inexpensive machine plus a student on minimum wage) to scan historic and apparently unwanted books electronically aka Project Guttenberg?  And to be uploaded to the Library's own site, or a central repository funded by the BL? 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Captain RHW said:

There is some hope that GW interest is being increased substantially due to the Armistice centenary, and works such as Peter Jackson's films. 

 

Question - with modern scanning technology as good as it is, is it too much to hope that libraries might be able to be provided with the resource (inexpensive machine plus a student on minimum wage) to scan historic and apparently unwanted books electronically aka Project Guttenberg?  And to be uploaded to the Library's own site, or a central repository funded by the BL? 

 

     Copyright clearance is the problem- Much discussed on this Forum

[Captain RHW]

Ah I will read more widely on the Forum then, it's ages since I looked at copyright issues, but off the top of my head, isn't it life of the author plus fifty years from death, under the Berne Convention, meaning that quite a few GW books must have expired by now (accepting also that a lot will not have).  

Also, some estates/publishers might be happy to release stuff if it's long out of print and they're not getting any royalties, although even then it's easier said than done. 

[seaJane]

Just now, Captain RHW said:

Ah I will read more widely on the Forum then, it's ages since I looked at copyright issues, but off the top of my head, isn't it life of the author plus fifty years from death, under the Berne Convention, meaning that quite a few GW books must have expired by now (accepting also that a lot will not have).  

It's been +70 years since the mid-90s, when John Buchan (for example) came out of copyright for a year or two, only to go back in again (and is now out of copyright once more).

[Captain RHW]

Cheers for that.  Seems excessive to me, even speaking as an author - god knows who'd buy my books 70 years after I kick the bucket, but I guess it was worth it for certain publishers (not just JM Barrie's).   

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Captain RHW said:

Cheers for that.  Seems excessive to me, even speaking as an author - god knows who'd buy my books 70 years after I kick the bucket, but I guess it was worth it for certain publishers (not just JM Barrie's).   

 

     J.M.Barrie is the exception to the Copyright legislation - the late Sunny Jim (Callaghan) having pushed through an Act to perpetuate copyright, of Peter Pan with the profits going to a well-known good cause. It's an interesting story which shows a leading politico in a good light, which is itself most unusual.

[Captain RHW]

I will have to look at the Peter Pan story in more detail. I'm normally against exemptions like that as they are a breach of the rule of law (and no excuse to say they're in a good cause, since there is no end of potential good causes).  The VAT system is ridiculous because it is riddled with the sort of exemptions that leads to millionaire QCs arguing in the highest court in the land over whether a jaffa cake is a biscuit or a cake, but that's wandering off topic somewhat.  

 

 

[MartH]

On 03/11/2018 at 09:13, Derek Black said:

Do you mean Wouldn't? Otherwise i'm confused...

 

Derek.

Yes my mistake predictive ruddy typing.

 

Back to the subject of disposals of books, I have a nearly complete collection of English language Official Histories except US ones covering many wars or  altercations.   Some of the super rare books are from library disposals that where purchased in the 1980's and never seen again for sale since then. They don't have a clue, what I particularly enjoy is getting an original book, below the retail reprint price and the book dealer apologies because its ex library.....

[Guest]

4 hours ago, MartH said:

and the book dealer apologies because its ex library..

 

    Good Grief!!   Booksellers apologise?  I thought we worked to the John Wayne/Nathan Brittles Principle in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon"-  "Don't apologise son, it's a sign of weakness"

    On a serious point, the term "ex-lib" covers a multitude of sins- usually nowadays taken to be synonymous to "junk", which is assessing the quality of the book against it's provenance, which is a fatal mistake.

Good for you for picking up the goodies. Goodness knows how many are super-rare because librarians just chucked them away.

 

(Hope the Mutt is prospering)

 

[Uncle George]

I bought John Campbell's 'Lloyd George - The Goat in the Wilderness' (1977) a couple of years ago from eBay, advertised as ex-library. When it arrived I was surprised to see that it had belonged to the Britannia Royal Naval College Library (a sticker glued to the inside front cover enjoins 'No Library books may be taken to sea'). Apart from some library stickers it's in perfect condition. 

 

But here's the thing - the stamps on the withdrawals slip reveal that in forty years it had been withdrawn two times.

[other ranker]

I am grateful for the ex library books. Its the only way I could find an original copy of 'There's A Devil In The Drum' couple of years ago for £20 after 20 years of searching. It will probably take another 20 years to find another!

[MartH]

1 hour ago, voltaire60 said:

Good Grief!!   Booksellers apologise?  I thought we worked to the John Wayne/Nathan Brittles Principle in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon"-  "Don't apologise son, it's a sign of weakness"

    On a serious point, the term "ex-lib" covers a multitude of sins- usually nowadays taken to be synonymous to "junk", which is assessing the quality of the book against it's provenance, which is a fatal mistake.

Good for you for picking up the goodies. Goodness knows how many are super-rare because librarians just chucked them away.

 

(Hope the Mutt is prospering)

 

Yes it did shock me a Bookseller apologising, 

 

And your reference to ex-lib is important, it does not just mean junk, it can mean so much more, I have some naval books ex-lib, like from the Royal Library at Balmoral a book on the Dreadnought and its launch.

 

Kai was here last week and we all had a lovely time, walked, fed and fussed by more than one person. 

[Gunga Din]

Poor History. I recall many years ago an old Grenadier Guards Officer telling me that Great War period Regimental Histories were largely written "by Officers, about Officers and for Officers and no-one else".  The subscription lists of the RB and KRRC Chronicles and a number of Regimental histories would largely bear this out. Many years later this seems largely true of most histories written in the 1920s-1930s. They are generally class-biased accounts with limited acknowledgement (proportionally) of the contribution of the Other Ranks.  Most Regimental histories have appendices that are disproportionately tilted towards the Officers, particularly those from the right 'class'. Ex ranker Officers  tend to be subordinated in the narratives. 

 

One one might argue that some of these are not histories but eulogies based on class biases. The three volume history of the Grenadier Guards is a particularly good example of the overwhelming emphasis on Officer participation. (very frequent updates on nominal rolls of Officers). Officers are named individually 1,786 times. Other Ranks are named just 43 times in the narratives -  reflecting their diaries' almost exclusive focus on less than 3% (by turnover of number) of their battalions. One might be forgiven for thinking Other Ranks even participated . It is a rather sad example of how Regimental histories were distorted. The Yeomanry would make the Guards look like amateurs in this aspect. 

 

Why any public library in the enlightened ages of 2018 would wish to retain copies of much Regimental 'history' is anyone's guess; many didn't reflect accurate history at the time and don't reflect history a hundred years later. Should this be a factor? Or should we simply accept their distorted views as axioms of the Great War? And leave these as curiosities of distorted perspectives for future generations?  I am undecided. Despite this, it is interesting nonetheless, more form a perspective of social  psychology than **ahem** history. ...so I have a certain degree of apathy towards the disposal of biased Great War History.

 

That said I doubt those disposing had any knowledge or understanding, so my point is probably irrelevant. 

 

GD

Edited 7 November , 2018 by Gunga Din
apostrophe

[rflory]

Having been on the Library Committee at the university in which I taught for 30+ years it became very evident that the quality, usefulness or academic value of books meant very little to librarians; rather it was use.  They meticulously counted the number of times a book was removed from the self and when one of the annual book-thinning processes took place it was the book-use count that determined which books were removed from the shelf and sold in the their annual used book sale.  Our geosciences faculty to save books that were valuable to the profession, but had limited use, would give bibliographic assignments to students that required them to examine a large number of books to increase the book-use count.

[Captain RHW]

I knew of a supplier of information to a profession that did the same thing - judged the value of its portfolio purely on useage stats. When they finally questioned their customers, they learned that one book was rarely used but was the highest rated by a distance, because they only consulted it when they were in a tricky situation and knew they could rely on it each time. Useage stats could never tell you that sort of info