Armored trains

[Steve1871]

There are many pics of German, Russian and I think Polish Armored  trains but never heard of French or British Armored Trains. Did the Allies have any? 

  Also, are there any reports/ stories of them being attacked from the Air, fighters, bombers?? I have a lot of old "Cross and Cockaid" magazines but never had time to go through them. 

  Also any other actions involving these trains. Thank you Sir's

[Steve1871]

I do not know where the pic is right now, but the French had a long sling type thing mounted on a board maybe 2M long to throw grenades farther than an average man, looked more like a giant sling shot.....Thinking about it, Sounds like a great idea for trench warfare at night- No Muzzle flash to give away position. What was this thing and were other inventions made for man power so not to have a muzzle flash to give away position??

Curious Minds Want to Know Thanks

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Steve

 

The British had three armoured trains on the Western Front: Churchill, Jellicoe and De Guise. I think that they were all mobilised by the Royal Navy for use in Belgium, and they were reorganised into "Armoured train No.1" which continued under First Army throughout the War.

 

The British also used armoured trains in Egypt and Palestine.

 

Ron

Edited 24 October , 2018 by Ron Clifton

[Terry_Reeves]

Here are war diaries for armoured trains most of which have been digitised and can be downloaded for a small fee:

 

http://tinyurl.com/y8bbved3

 

TR

Edited 24 October , 2018 by Terry_Reeves

[Chris_Baker]

Oddly enough I just completed research on a man of the Royal Engineers Signal Service who served with a wireless detachment with No. 1 Armoured Train. At least while he was with it it also went by the name of 45 Siege Battery RGA.

[michaeldr]

quote from RC's post No.3:- The British had three armoured trains on the Western Front: Churchill, Jellicoe and De Guise. I think that they were all mobilised by the Royal Navy

 

There is a book - 'Naval Guns in Flanders 1914-1915' by L.F.R.; illustrated with photographs and maps this may still be available as a paperback reprint from the N & M Press

Edited 24 October , 2018 by michaeldr

[petwes]

I think the naming of the trains was more complicated than at first appears. The diary for No 1 Armoured train implies their component parts also were named.

Here we have Grand Duke Nicholas and General Petain in 1917

On a separate note I thought 45 Siege Battery comprised 2 x 9.2" guns on Railway mounts?

 

Peter

[Ron Clifton]

10 minutes ago, petwes said:

On a separate note I thought 45 Siege Battery comprised 2 x 9.2" guns on Railway mounts?

That is correct.

 

I don't know of a connection between 45 SB and No.1 Armoured Train, but it is possible that the men of the armoured train were attached to 45 SB for pay and administrative purposes.

 

Ron

[Gardenerbill]

Those of you who have been following my topic 'One hundred years ago this week in the Balkans' will have seen that on the 29th September 1918, the Germans and some of the Bulgarians escaped from Skopje on an armoured train. The attacking French didn't have any mountain guns and so were unable to stop the train. I haven't read anything to suggest it was bombed either.

[Dever Mayfly]

There were also the British Armoured trains in Siberia.  The 25th Middlesex CO and MP John Ward called for one after the Battle of Dukhovskaya and it was provided by HMS Suffolk's Captain Payne RN. Unfortunately, the gun recoil system froze in temperatures below 30 degrees sentigrade, so it did not take part in the Perm Offensive that winter, but in the spring the guns were transferred onto river steamers and were used on the Kama River by Captain Tom Jameson RMLI. 

[ororkep]

All the wireless apparatus of No1 Armoured Train was handed over to 45 Sge. Its documented, which would tie in with #5

[robbie56]

[michaeldr]

There is more interesting info on this old thread 

 

[Neill Gilhooley]

Robbie56 is right to refer to the armoured trains in the UK [the author means February 1915]

https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/armoured-trains-first-world-war/  

Edited 25 October , 2018 by Neill Gilhooley

[Neill Gilhooley]

This claims the first action by a British train was Ypres 1914

https://iht-retrospective.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/07/1914-armored-train-surprise/

[michaeldr]

One of the British units was in action a little earlier

On 4th October 1914 they were positioned to target an enemy battery south-east of Duffel from a range of 5,000 yards

and from the same position they fired shrapnel on an observation balloon which was hauled down after four rounds.

About midday (4thOCT'14) they advanced beyond Waerloos and opened fire on another battery from 6,500 yards

This train also had a 6-pounder anti-aircraft gun which was also inaction that day

[from  the book named in post No.6]

Edited 25 October , 2018 by michaeldr

[SiegeGunner]

Worth noting that armoured trains and railway guns were different species.  Railway guns were usually one large-calibre naval gun on a railway mounting, with a number of additional rail cars for ammunition, etc.  They were not generally armoured, as they operated from a relatively safe distance behind the lines.  The first British railway guns, using 9.2" naval guns, were mounted on rail cars in Belgian railway workshops in 1914 (see the book referenced by Michaeldr in post #6).  'Rail Gun' by John Batchelor and Ian Hogg, is a good introduction to British, French, German and American railway guns.

[JulianR]

Dear All,

 

The following book does have a extensive chapter on the Armoured Trains, I do however have to admit to having been one of the editors.

 

http://www.borht.org.uk/WW1.htm#WW1BOOK

 

Julian

[Sly]

Hello,

There is an interesting book about the French trains and railways in WW1: "les chemins de fer français pendant la première guerre mondiale" by Aurélien Prévot.

Here is a link on a model railway forum, it's in French but there are many photos of armored trains:

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77393

Sly

[wrightdw]

'Armoured trains' were used extensively during the Russian Civil War. The British operated several "armoured trains" in Russia 1918-20. I appreciate the difference between an 'armoured' train and 'railway gun' carriage however the term 'armoured train' was used colloquially by the British during the campaign in Russia so the distinction is lost in both first hand and official accounts. I suspect in many cases (especially early on in the campaign) the described 'armoured train' was in fact a 'railway gun' carriage, i.e. an artillery piece strapped to a flatbed railway carriage.

 

One described 'armoured train' (named 'Miles' after an RFC pilot killed on the Western Front) with a mixed crew of British and Canadian gunners (with at times small numbers of French and Polish troops) operated on the Archangel-Vologda Railway and was commanded by Lieut-Cdr. Edward Hilton-Young, DSC, MP, RNVR who had lost an arm at Zeebrugge.

 

With Young in command (he was awarded a DSO for command of the train), Miles fought possibly the only British train-on-train engagement of WW1 on 18 August 1918 (see below).

 

The British also operated a rudimetary 'armoured train' on the Murmansk front on the Murmansk-Petrograd Railway. It was essentially a 4.5 Howitzer strapped to an armoured train carriage. the gun was commanded by 19 year old 2nd Lieutenant Gordon Miller, RFA attached from 1,203rd Bty., who sadly was KIA on 16 September 1919, one of the last British solders to be KIA in North Russia.

 

A combined Royal Marine/Royal Navy Armoured Train under Capt. John Bath, RMLI and Cdr. James Wolfe-Murray, RN (HMS Suffolk), also saw action in the Ussuri District of Siberia during August 1918.

 

There is a good account of Maj. Noel Williamson's artillery duel with a Red armoured train in the Crimea in June 1919 in his book 'Farewell to the Don'. Williamson was an artillery adviser to White Russian artillery unit equipped with donated British 18 Pdr's. He was awarded a DSO for South Russia to add to an MC awarded on the Western Front, nearly died of typhus but lived to write a very interesting account of service with the British Military Mission to White Russian Gen. Denikin.

 

On 19 December 1919, Canadian ace Raymond Collishaw (who was at the time commanding No. 47 Sqn., RAF - a combined Sopwith Camel fighter and DH9A bomber squadron over the Don, Kuban and Crimea) made an attack on an armoured train, dropping bombs, on landing he learned that the train had been White Russian, one of Gen. Wrangel's, an unfortunate case of "blue-on-blue".

 

On 28 March 1920, a DH9A of 'A' Flight, No. 47 Sqn. in the Crimea flew one of the squadron's last missions over Russia, bombing and strafing Red cavalry and also scoring a direct hit on a Bolshevik 'armoured train'.

 

Anglo-Indian troops In Turkestan (mostly 28th Light Cavalry and 19th Punjabi's) also faced off against several Red 'armoured trains' during the campaign against the Bolsheviks there August 1918 - January 1919.