Confusion regarding regiments

[Ludditeme]

Hi,

 

I’m trying to help my son research any ancestors that were on active service in the Great War and would appreciate any help if anyone knows where to begin. My grandfather grew up and lived in a small cotton town called Crompton (now Shaw) near Oldham. His name was Harvey Stott (no middle name) and he was born in 1894 and had a brother called Henry born in 1896. I know he was taken captive on the western front but not when.

 

I am struggling to find out much about his life at that time. There are some references to the Border Regiment online, but I would have thought he would join a local East Lancs or Manchester regiment, which is bringing doubts in to these. 

 

I would be really grateful for any pointers in where to look for information here. It started off as a history assignment, but I’m truly hooked now!

 

Service numbers: 248979 and 27325 seem to be generally relevant. (He survived the war).

 

Many thanks,

Neil

 

 

Edited 21 October , 2018 by Ludditeme
Added picture

[charlie962]

Welcome Neil,

The cap badge is Manchester Regiment , I think.

Charlie

Edited 21 October , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

This is part of his record at the ICRC

[Ludditeme]

Hi Charlie,

 

Many thanks. That would make more sense to me. I’ll try again!

 

Neil

[charlie962]

You will find his PoW index card here and can then select the individual records from it

[Michelle Young]

Always best to start here as per the advice at the top of Soldiers sub forum 

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/

 

Michelle 

[charlie962]

Neil, just to clarify:

The extract in my post 3 shows that this Harvey Stott was born 9/9/1894 Shaw (should that read 7/7/1894 ?) and his father is Mr Stott of Shaw. He was taken prisoner 23/3/17 at St Leger, and was unwounded. He was C Company 2nd Battalion Border Regt at the time. This looks to be your ancestor so I wonder about the photo?

 

If you look at the headings on each of the 3 sheets that the card link in post 5 ponts you to, ie PA14285, PA12244 and PA 11336 you will see which camps he was at at the time . I note that PA11336 gives his correct date of birth as 7/7/1894.

 

Charlie

Edited 21 October , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

39 minutes ago, Ludditeme said:

It started off as a history assignment, but I’m truly hooked now!

Not unusual ! Do follow Michelle's advice and look at the LongLongTrail which is full of helpful information and explanations. It might help structure your search as well.

Charlie

[charlie962]

It may be that @charlie2 can help with a link between Manchester Regiment and Border Regiment  relevant to Stott ?

Edited 21 October , 2018 by charlie962

[Ludditeme]

Hi Charlie,

 

Yes, it should be 7/7/94. His father was John W Stott who stayed in the same area all his life.

 

I’ll follow up, but it does look to be the right person. Many thanks for you help.

 

@Michelle, thanks for the pointer.

[RussT]

This man has surviving service papers.

 

He was a conscript called-up to the Manchester Regiment on 12/04/1916 and allotted the service number 35467.

 

He was transferred to the Border Regiment on 09/09/1916 (joining the 2nd Bn in the field on 11/09/1916) after joining the BEF on 25/08/1916, so I conclude he transferred at an IBD (see Edit) in France.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

Edit: It was 30/IBD, being transferred under Authority ACI/1499/16

 

Here is in a draft 100 strong from the Manchester Regiment as per the 2/Bn Border Regiment War Diary

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 October , 2018 by RussT

[Ludditeme]

Hi Russ,

 

That would make more sense; so he was with a group to bring the Borders back up to strength. I’m curious why his service number would change though, is that normal in these situations?

 

Many thanks for unearthing this information. I have access to Ancestry.co.uk and Forces War Records, but there hasn’t been much to find out with my limited knowledge of what is held.

 

Thanks again,

Neil

[RussT]

6 minutes ago, Ludditeme said:

I’m curious why his service number would change though, is that normal in these situations?

 

When a man changed Regiments he was re-numbered - being allotted a number from the series of numbers of the recipient unit.

[Ludditeme]

Hi Russ,

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I’m going to look back at his capture date to try to piece his story together.

 

Kind regards,

Neil

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, RussT said:

This man has surviving service papers.

That is great that you now have the explanation.

52 minutes ago, Ludditeme said:

I’m going to look back at his capture date to try to piece his story together.

If you look at the 2n Border Regt War Diary ( available on Ancestry here)

it mentions there were 10 killed,35 wounded and 15 missing ORs in the period 21-31/3/17. Nothing obvious for C Company around 23rd. I note that on the same sequence of PoW lists around PA11336 that there are the names of three or four other 2nd Borders ORs taken in 21-31/3. On the same day and place as him there is another man taken, shown as A Company. I wonder how they were taken. Did they get lost on one of those patrols that is mentioned ?

Charlie

Edited 21 October , 2018 by charlie962

[RussT]

His service papers contains the court of enquiry on the circumstances of his capture.

[charlie962]

5 minutes ago, RussT said:

His service papers contains the court of enquiry on the circumstances of his capture.

Just seen it- fascinating to read that. No Blame.

 

PS the Service file on Ancestry is under Harry Archdale Stott and is here

Good old Ancestry quality control !!

[Ludditeme]

Hi gents,

This is way more than I expected. The enquiry has actually helped to add depth to the records.

 

Once again, many thanks for your help with this.

Neil

 

[MBrockway]

4 hours ago, RussT said:

This man has surviving service papers.

 

He was a conscript called-up to the Manchester Regiment on 12/04/1916 and allotted the service number 35467.

 

He was transferred to the Border Regiment on 09/09/1916 (joining the 2nd Bn in the field on 11/09/1916) after joining the BEF on 25/08/1916, so I conclude he transferred at an IBD (see Edit) in France.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

Edit: It was 30/IBD, being transferred under Authority ACI/1499/16

 

 

and indeed, ACI 1499 of 1916 covered Compulsory transfers on arrival in France, viz.

Images courtesy of Pal Graham Stewart - many thanks!

 

Mark

 

 

Edited 21 October , 2018 by MBrockway