Any KOSB experts? (perhaps 1/4th Bn)

[4thGordons]

I just bought a small lot of 30 photographs (snapshots @ 60mm square)

They were bought with only a vague description and poor photos, basically all I could see was they were wearing glengarries. However they arrived in a period cardboard film wallet upon which someone has neatly inscribed "1st Battalion KOSB 1914."

The photos (of varying quality) certainly appear to show KOSBs and the equipment and dress appears to be early war (At first I thought it must be a pre war camp although all the officers are wearing 08 web so I wondered if this may actually be in France/Flanders) I wondered if anyone might be able to confirm the battalion. Some have some very hard to read annotations on the back and some are damaged. A few scanned below. There is one distant view of industrial buildings with the annotation "The mill in which the Bn was billeted for so long"

Any assistance in identifying individuals or a time-frame much appreciated.

Chris

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 October , 2018 by 4thGordons

[IanA]

The 1st Bn were in India when war broke out. They shipped back to the UK as soon as they could but were then posted to Gallipoli - so not in France. Is there any chance it could be 1/4 KOSB? I know they spent time billeted in a mill while training and some of the faces look familiar.

 

Ian 

[Rob B]

Could this be the Second Battalion (2 KOSB) who were in Ireland until July 1914. As having spent a while over the water those dry stone walls look strangely familiar and not Continental!

[IanA]

Yes, the more I look at it, the colonel is Lt-Col J. McNeile and the chap on the left of the first photo is Lt Andrew Bulman who was killed at Gallipoli. I'm guessing that the photos were taken by the local paper while whey were training. They were billeted in a mill at Cambusbarron.

 

Ian

I attach an image of Bulman. 

[Rob B]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02pdnc9

 

In the spring of 1915, men of the 52nd Lowland Division were billeted and being trained near Stirling.

They were based at Hayford Mill in the village of Cambusbarron, and their training took place both near the Mill and also close by on Touch Moor.

“They would have been doing hard core training on Touch Moor,” explains Stirling Council archaeologist Murray Cook. “Running, firing…getting used to being muddy. But probably not really adequate preparation for the full industrialised horror of the Gallipoli campaign.”

[4thGordons]

Thanks, all

The pics look more like private snapshots than images taken by a professional photographer but there are some nice ones amongst them. I will scan and post if they are of interest.

Here is the mill: WHICH DOES INDEED LOOK LIKE CUMBUSBARRON

Chris

 

 

Edited 20 October , 2018 by 4thGordons

[IanA]

42 minutes ago, Rob B said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02pdnc9

 

In the spring of 1915, men of the 52nd Lowland Division were billeted and being trained near Stirling.

They were based at Hayford Mill in the village of Cambusbarron, and their training took place both near the Mill and also close by on Touch Moor.

“They would have been doing hard core training on Touch Moor,” explains Stirling Council archaeologist Murray Cook. “Running, firing…getting used to being muddy. But probably not really adequate preparation for the full industrialised horror of the Gallipoli campaign.”

The War Record states that the most famous training area was Shielbrae but the grounds of Airthray Castle, near Bridge of Allan were also well used.

[IanA]

The major on the second and third photos is almost certainly J. Herbertson.

[4thGordons]

[4thGordons]

Bands on hats to indicate "umpires" in exercise?

 

 

[IanA]

Great photographs! Thanks for posting them.

[gmac101]

 

 

I'm not sure where I picked this up from - but Is suspect that it confirms the photos are 1/4th KOSB. Lt Col McNeill and  Major Herbertson can be clearly seen in the photos.  The photos themselves are lovely informal shots, I suspect taken by an officer as they are very relaxed shots - You may be able to work out who's camera it was by process of elimination

 

Gavin

[4thGordons]

I'll put up some more as I scan them. Thanks for your assistance in identifying the Bn

Chris

[gmac101]

Whilst the group shot of the officers is a formal photo I like the way the sat the smallest officer next to the largest.  It suggested a sense of humour and  fun amongst them all which is bourne out in the informal shots.  So many died in a few hours on the 12th of July 1915 it's lovely to see them in happier times 

[Derek Robertson]

Chris,

Superb photos - they are 4th KOSB as I recognised several of the officers straight away.

[Derek Robertson]

Walter Forrest M.C., 2nd from left in back row. Scottish rugby internationalist killed at Gaza in 1917. From Kelso. We knew Wifred Owen.

Major Wullie Cochrane, 3rd from left.

Patrick Laing of Hawick sitting.

[Derek Robertson]

The mill featured was at Cambusbarron near Stirling and it is still there.

[Steven Broomfield]

Lovely pictures and nice work by the Forum.

[Heid the Ba]

Indeed, thanks for posting them.

[4thGordons]

7 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Lovely pictures and nice work by the Forum.

I agree, a fine demonstration of the expertise of the Forum

Here is the set of pictures minus a couple of damaged ones and duplicates.

Chris

 

[Steven Broomfield]

Brilliant!

[4thGordons]

The last couple of pictures (with horses), especially the 3rd from the end,  would appear to confirm that these pics were taken by an officer of the battalion as there is an extra horse. It would be interesting to identify the photographer (whose shadow appears in the foreground of a couple of pics)

I have also just noticed the typo in the final slide! (arrgh) I will have to edit that asap!

 

Chris

[MayBug]

Chris

 

What you have is a beautiful and rare snapshot of men who were about to have a rendezvous with death on a scale that was then unimaginable. One can almost sense their innocence.

 

I have researched this battalion in some detail many years ago (family (Maxwell) connections via Glasgow and Dumfries). Somewhere I have the fates of all the original officers.The subtitles of the group photo kindly posted by GMAC 101 does not give the full picture. Three more of the group died, meaning 55% of the original Officers in the picture died during the war; I suspect it might be one more who died of causes after 1919..... Even by the standards of the attrition of 1914-15 this is pretty extreme, however by the standards of the 51st (Lowland) Division (TF) and the 9th (Scottish) and 15th (Scottish) Divisions of the New Armies (Loos) this was par for the course. The 38 battalions of these three Divisions averaged 49% Officer fatalities. Despite being in different theatres the numbers are incredibly and harrowingly similar.- such is the randomness of industrialised warfare; the Law of Big Numbers dominates -  something I think that fuels the myth misunderstanding that the Scottish were sacrificed by English Generals in the Great War. Very disturbing stats nonetheless....

 

It is some time since I went over the old research but I have transcribed their Gallipoli war diary, their medal roll (Gallipoli) and I have 4th Battalion's published history if you need any colour. Ditto the 5th Battalion (TF) (in the same Brigade and the beneficiaries of more eloquent diarists and historians).The KOSB were well served by their historians.

 

I am quite sure I could name all the Officers. If you need any of the above please PM me.

 

Just flying by to collect some old data and noticed this lovely thread.... 

 

MayBug

Melolantha Pectoralis

 

 

Edited 24 October , 2018 by MayBug

[gmac101]

I think that the Officer (who bears a slight resemblence to Pte Pike) with a clip board in picture 6 may be A H M Henderson who was a medical student prior to the war and died on the 12th July 1915.  Anybody concur? - Looked more carefully he's not an officer

Edited 27 October , 2018 by gmac101
He's not an officer - oops