East Lancs to MGC

[MaxD]

A number of East Lancs men with pretty random appear to have been transferred to the MGC with numbers between 176507 and 176641.  The "adjacent numbers" trickery doesn't give me anything - could anyone determine the MGC company number form those numbers (if indeed it was just one company)??.

 

Max

[ss002d6252]

Not sure if it holds in this case but I found the earlier 5 digit numbers could be tied to MG companies but once it got to 6 digit numbers it was all over the place.

 

Craig

[MaxD]

Thanks Craig, probably explains why the numbers game didn't seem to produce anything consistent..

 

Max

[ss002d6252]

I'm sure someone can confirm but I suspect that once it got to the later numbers they were just issued as and when a new number was needed (whereas the original numbers were issued in batches to each company).

 

Craig

[MaxD]

Update - partial, badly damaged record found.  A late (Sep 1918) transfer to MGC although battalion (as it would have been by then) not recorded.  That would tend to support your suspicion I think.

 

Max

[kenf48]

I can't tell you which Battalion or Company of the MGC they went to but they appear to have been transferred from the 6th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment

e.g. Sgt J Gardner 176507 was in the 6th East Lancs (att. 33 BGH(?)) fragment on FMP Daily Orders sick

As was 18526 Morris (MM)

As was 24339 Brown (Medical Records)

 

I haven't searched them all but there is a note on the Roll which I can't decipher but suspect it may be the MGC Depot in India, which was the staging post for Mesopatamia.  So 500 numbers which were apparently allocated to the Lancashire Regiments in 38th Brigade 13th (Western) Division.  There are a couple of notes against names in the Rolls which state 'entered in error - India only' which seems to indicate these men earned the Victory Medal in Mesopotamia whereas a handful remained in India.

 

Ken

Edited 20 October , 2018 by kenf48

[Retlaw]

90 original Accrington Pals transferred to the machine gun corps in late 1915, examining the record books at Kew a large number of them were in the 107 group, but for some reason, some had numbers in the 9000 groups, couldn't find any rhyme nor reason for that, my uncle finished up as  10761 36th battalion, his six mates who buried him had far different numbers.

[kenf48]

8 hours ago, Retlaw said:

90 original Accrington Pals transferred to the machine gun corps in late 1915, examining the record books at Kew a large number of them were in the 107 group, but for some reason, some had numbers in the 9000 groups, couldn't find any rhyme nor reason for that, my uncle finished up as  10761 36th battalion, his six mates who buried him had far different numbers.

 

The MGC began numbering at 3000 when it was formed in October 1915, as the existing battalion machine gunners were gradually absorbed into the Corps, a process which continued through the winter of 1915/16,they were formed into Brigade Companies.  Reorganised into Divisional Battalions in February 1918 it's inevitable men moved around in the intervening years for all the usual reasons.  

Four digit numbers tended to be the original men and I would suggest most of those in the 9000 series would originally have gone into 94 Company.  Initially the Companies were deployed in support of their original Battalions but that was dependent on which Battalion was in the attack. For example George Coppard applauds the 'sensible decision' they would  support their old regiment was 'warmly received' after the machine gunners were transferred into the Corps.

 

Ken

[MaxD]

Ken

 

I should have said his partial record showed that my man was indeed a 6 East Lancs man , the transfer of documents in Sep 1918 to MGC records with number 176596 is the only legible part of his surviving docs.  He did receive a pair. From what you say, a transfer to 38 Company in 38 Bde would seem the most likely.

 

Thank you for your interest.

 

Max

[Retlaw]

14 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

The MGC began numbering at 3000 when it was formed in October 1915, as the existing battalion machine gunners were gradually absorbed into the Corps, a process which continued through the winter of 1915/16,they were formed into Brigade Companies.  Reorganised into Divisional Battalions in February 1918 it's inevitable men moved around in the intervening years for all the usual reasons.  

Four digit numbers tended to be the original men and I would suggest most of those in the 9000 series would originally have gone into 94 Company.  Initially the Companies were deployed in support of their original Battalions but that was dependent on which Battalion was in the attack. For example George Coppard applauds the 'sensible decision' they would  support their old regiment was 'warmly received' after the machine gunners were transferred into the Corps.

 

Ken

That supporting their original battalions didn't happen in the case of those Accrington Pals who transferred into the machine gun corps, the Pals went to Egwypt, before France, and the lads in the MGC were never deployed where the Pals were fighting, and those former Pals who were given 4 digits were new to the MGC, I can post some of their names and numbers if you like as  I spent ages down at Kew going thro the MGC medal books

[kenf48]

32 minutes ago, Retlaw said:

That supporting their original battalions didn't happen in the case of those Accrington Pals who transferred into the machine gun corps, the Pals went to Egwypt, before France, and the lads in the MGC were never deployed where the Pals were fighting, and those former Pals who were given 4 digits were new to the MGC, I can post some of their names and numbers if you like as  I spent ages down at Kew going thro the MGC medal books

 

The service record of 10757 Robert Horner Devonshire Street Accrington  enlisted 11th Battalion, East Lancashire 22 June 1915, posted to 12th Battalion 3 September 1915.  Transferred to the MGC 24 February 1916 and went to Grantham from where he was posted to 106 Company.  He did  not apparently go with the main body to France,joining the BEF on 25 September 1916.  Ironically, or perhaps by design from the MG Base Depot at Camiers he was posted  to 94 Company on the 21 October.

Extrapolating movements from just one record should be treated with caution but I haven’t time to search for anymore and I’m away next week.  However we can say two officers from the MGC visited home service, i.e. Reserve Battalions to select suitable men for the Corps.  These men went to Grantham for training before being posted.  Where they were posted to is more of a problem.  107 Company    Was in 36 Division and probably  became D Company when the 36 Battalion MGC was formed.  

 

Ken

[Retlaw]

23 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

The service record of 10757 Robert Horner Devonshire Street Accrington  enlisted 11th Battalion, East Lancashire 22 June 1915, posted to 12th Battalion 3 September 1915.  Transferred to the MGC 24 February 1916 and went to Grantham from where he was posted to 106 Company.  He did  not apparently go with the main body to France,joining the BEF on 25 September 1916.  Ironically, or perhaps by design from the MG Base Depot at Camiers he was posted  to 94 Company on the 21 October.

Extrapolating movements from just one record should be treated with caution but I haven’t time to search for anymore and I’m away next week.  However we can say two officers from the MGC visited home service, i.e. Reserve Battalions to select suitable men for the Corps.  These men went to Grantham for training before being posted.  Where they were posted to is more of a problem.  107 Company    Was in 36 Division and probably  became D Company when the 36 Battalion MGC was formed.  

 

Ken

6

I have the details of all the Original Pals who volunteered to transfer into the machine gun corps, numbered from 9951 to 9967   and 10080 to 10798, I also have over a 1000 sets of service records of those who served in the 11th East Lancs, as well as details of all the 1684 men who enlisted in  the Original Accrington Pals, from Sept 1914 to June 30th, 1916,  plus the  details of the 2595 men who were posted to the 11th to make up battle losses, to June 1st, 1919, if I had to print it out it would be around 300 pages, and that doesn't include pictures of some of the men and all their grave markers around Serre.

How could two officers select men from the 12th to join the machine gun corps, what criteria would they use, height, weight, age, hair colour. accent. Those lads who transferred to the MGC, had volunteered well before the Pals went to Egwypt.

I have all the possessions of 10761 that were returned to his mother.

Edited 22 October , 2018 by Retlaw

[kenf48]

22 hours ago, Retlaw said:

 

How could two officers select men from the 12th to join the machine gun corps, what criteria would they use, height, weight, age, hair colour. accent.

 

On the formation of the MGC men were transferred from their existing unit into the Corps.  It is arguable that they were volunteers as there is little or no record of the selection process applied within those units.  There is evidence of the antipathy towards the Corps by  senior officers.  Harold Tennant then Under Secretary of State for War in answer to a question in Parliament claimed that men were ‘selected for duty in the MGC on the basis of their fitness for the duties of that Corps’.  He went on to deny ‘unsuitable’ men were being put forward. 

 

It was widely accepted that Commanding Officers  of Reserve Battalions, from where the second, and subsequent cohort of officers and men were raised would not select men who they considered were their ‘best soldiers’.

One service record, for example, shows a man fined seven days pay by his CO for a minor misdemeanour and transferred to the MGC the following week.

 

In spite of Tennant’s comments and the lack of hard evidence the Army shared the concern that unsuitable men were being selected for the Corps that on the 14 August 1916 they issued ACI 1589 which set out the physical criteria for selection under the headings of general physique; age;height;chest measurement and eyesight. 

 

Ken

 

 

[Retlaw]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

 

On the formation of the MGC men were transferred from their existing unit into the Corps.  It is arguable that they were volunteers as there is little or no record of the selection process applied within those units.  There is evidence of the antipathy towards the Corps by  senior officers.  Harold Tennant then Under Secretary of State for War in answer to a question in Parliament claimed that men were ‘selected for duty in the MGC on the basis of their fitness for the duties of that Corps’.  He went on to deny ‘unsuitable’ men were being put forward. 

 

It was widely accepted that Commanding Officers  of Reserve Battalions, from where the second, and subsequent cohort of officers and men were raised would not select men who they considered were their ‘best soldiers’.

One service record, for example, shows a man fined seven days pay by his CO for a minor misdemeanour and transferred to the MGC the following week.

 

In spite of Tennant’s comments and the lack of hard evidence the Army shared the concern that unsuitable men were being selected for the Corps that on the 14 August 1916 they issued ACI 1589 which set out the physical criteria for selection under the headings of general physique; age;height;chest measurement and eyesight. 

 

Ken

 

 

Those Accy Pals who transferred into the M.G.C., were all volunteers, and they were all fit men, twelve months of military training had seen to that. Rickman had to select men from the12th to bring  his battalion back up to strength, and the men he selected were all Lancashire men from this area. As I said I know all their history, grew up with their children, worked along side  many of them when I left school, listened to their stories, and stood beside them at their mate's graves in France and Belgium.

2 minutes ago, Retlaw said:

 

 

5

 

Edited 23 October , 2018 by Retlaw