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This comes from the main topic regarding the Heath Cemetery, Harbonnieres.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/265515-heath-cemetery-harbonnieres/

 

Quote

The Serjeant of the 7th London Regiment on COG-BR 2301363 is either Alfred Chapman or George Angus, if the information is correct except for the date (CWGC Link). Perhaps we will find the second one and then know they are both "Buried in this Cemetery"? They were recovered from 62d.K.31.a.10.00. There are others on this page, such as Private Reeves who are dated the 13th and were killed on the 9th. Probably the burial date was used. There is another Unknown Serjeant of the London Regiment on COG-BR 2301388 found at 62d.K.27.d.70.90 but we don't have a battalion or date. That may not matter as during the Battle of Amiens in August 1918 there are only two missing Serjeants of the London Regiment, chapman and Angus, so that means we have a case for a "Special Memorial A". This Serjeant was found with Private G T Taylor who was 4th Bn London Regiment, 8 August 1918. Thought for a moment we had a snag, there is a third Unknown Sergeant found at the same location on COG-BR 2301409. Turns out it is a duplicate page!

 

It would appear that the CWGC has the former number for Serjeant Angus incorrect. The surnames are hyperlinked to the Medal Rolls Index Cards on Ancestry. None of those cards refer to anything other than "7/London R.". The LLT tells me the "1/7th (City of London) Regiment" was transferred to the 174th Brigade in the 58th (2/1st London) DIvision on 2 February 1918. At that time it absorbed the disbanded 2/7th Bn and was renamed the 7th Bn. SInce we are dealing with Serjeants from August 1918, our reference is then the 7th Bn.

CHAPMAN

Serjeant

350220 (formerly 1545)

ALFRED

Thursday, August 8, 1918

VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL

VIEW RECORD

7th Bn. London Regiment

ANGUS

Serjeant

350270 (formerly 1641)

GEORGE

Friday, August 9, 1918

VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL

VIEW RECORD

(1461). "C" Coy. 1st/7th Bn. London Regiment

 

You have to go to 8 September 1918 before you pick up another candidate:

 

HEMPSTEAD

Serjeant

350134 (formerly 1366)

HENRY ARTHUR

Sunday, September 8, 1918

VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL

VIEW RECORD

"B" Coy. 7th Bn. London Regiment

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The two sets of remains were recovered from 62d.K.31.a.10.00 and 62d.K.27.d.70.90, as noted above. The 6th, 7th and 8th battalions were all in the area but Serjeants are only missing from the 7th Battalion (CWGC Link). Remember that with the numbering sequence of the sectors. K.31 is to the west and south (rear) of K.27, so it is not a case of being found further in the advance - see map [Corbie] 62d.

 

Now checking the war diaries, where the 1/7th is still listed for February 1918 to November 1918 under the 58th Division starting at page 2 of 47. Skip ahead to August 1918 at page 25 of 47. The first thing we see is a detailed narrative of the operations of 8th-10th August, instead of daily entries. They start out in 62d.J.22.c to the assembly position at 62d.K.25.a, which has a reference to "Crump Lane". Their objective was the line at 62d.K.27.d.9.4 to 62d.K.27.b.9.7, so we are right in the area where the remains were recovered.

 

We know that Serjeant Angus was in "C" Coy who started out in support. At the objective "A" and "B" Coys went to pass to the north side of Malard Wood and "C" and "D" Coys containing the northwest side of the wood. On 9 August 1918 the 7th London Regiment were on the right flank if the American Troops who were attacking Gressaire Wood (I see that at 62d..K.23), so they are on the west bank of the River Somme. It was here that Captain Hallye-Jones was mortally wounded, whom we later find in the Villers-Bretonneux Cemetery (COG-BR 2059674), recovered from 62d.J.26.d.9.3, which would appear to be a burial ground. Odd that he was listed there as a Corporal and KIA 17 August 1918?

 

On the night of the 10th the battalion returned to Mallard Wood at 62d.K.27, to the south and west (rear) of the battle area at Gressaire Wood at 62d.K.23. We can be confident that it was during this period of the 8th-9th August 1918 that Serjeants Chapman and Angus fell in battle, later recovered and buried in the Heath Cemetery, Harbonnieres.

 

There is a subsequent narrative of operations for the period of 6-11 September 1918, covering the period when Serjeant Hempstead was killed. THey had now travelled by bus to an area west of Moislains (which I see at 62c.C.18), so well to the north of the action in August 1918 - see map [Peronne] 62c. On 8 September 1918 they marched from Gurlu Wood to  the assembly position at 62c.E.4 north of Saulcourt at 62c.E.9. Note that this takes us close to Epehy at 62c.F.5, north of Villers-Faucon at 62c.E.28, back to scene of the intense battles of March 1918 during the German advance to Amiens (Operation Michael). That might impact on the identity of any men found in this area but it should not impact on the August 1918 deaths. There are six (6) Serjeants of the regiment missing at that time 21 March to 5 April 1918, so they should be checked - the CWGC would insist (CWGC Link). None of the March 1918 missing are from the 7th Battalion.

 

The casualty report for 8 September 1918 was 4 Officers and 100 Other Ranks, mostly wounded. Serjeant Hempstead was one of 7 from the regiment who died that day, 5 of who are on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial (CWGC Link).

 

I would say that we have now identified the remains of the two Serjeants of the 7th Battalion London Regiment. If we can find out that one was killed during the advance, or wounded and taken back, then we know which-is-which. If not we have the case for two special memorials "Special Memorial A - Buried Elsewhere in this Cemetery", and hopefully they find a way to tell them which of the two graves. I suspect they are not close enough in 6.J.4 and 8.A.J to use "Special Memorial C - Buried Near this Spot", but at least then they can use to two existing headstones (renamed of course).

 

That is all for now!

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The question remains as to whether there were any units of the London Regiment in the area where the remains were recovered (Map 62d central - so east of Amiens, more or less along the north of the Somme River) at any other time during the Great War. Although I can tell a date or location by the presence of Canadians in the war, I am on the fringe of any knowledge of the British Armies. Probably a good idea to check with Chris Baker! @Chris_Baker

 

The area that we are looking at is between Sailly-le-Sec and Bray-sur-Somme, more or less due north of Cerisy and Chipilly. If we look at the McMaster outline maps, it is on the upright "stick" of the letter "d" in the "62d", along the line that separates the NE and SE sections of the map. Amiens is just visible on the left side of the map.

 

MapGrid62d.jpg

 

During the 1916 Battles of the Somme this would have been the area occupied by the French Sixth Army, with the British Fourth Army on their northern flank, not passing very much further south than Albert, which is just visible on the north section of 62d NE.

 

If I am to take a shot at this, which I dearly hope GWF Pals will correct me on or expand the details, I can surmise the following:

  • I would need to know the location of the following divisions as a start: (from the Long, Long Trail - London Regiment)
    • 47th (2nd London) Division
      • north of the area in the vicinity of Flers-Courcelette and High Wood (Map 57c) in 1916
      • Albert, Bapaume and St. Quentin in 1918
    • 56th (1st London) Division
      • to the north in the area from Gommecourt (57d) moving east to Combles (57c)
      • Arras, Albert and Cambrai in 1918, so well to the northeast
    • 58th (2/1st London) Division
      • arrived in 1917 to take part in the action at Bullecourt (51b), before heading to Belgium
      • at the Battle of Ste Quentin (62b) in March 1918, Villers-Bretonneux (62d.K) in April and then Amiens in August
      • any unit in this division could have been in the area in 1918
    • 60th (2/2nd London) Division
      • not involved in actions in France, as in Salonika in 1917 and the Middle East in 1918
         
  • I would presume from this that we are then restricted to operations of the 58th (2/1st London) Division in 1918. I have yet to check on their locations during the retreats of March 1918, but we know they were in the area in August 1918. It would appear that the prime candidate brigades would be:
    • 173rd (3/1st London) Brigade
    • 174th (2/2nd London) Brigade - the 6th, 7th and 8th Battalions were in the area in August 1918, yet to check on March 1918
    • 175th (2/3rd London) Brigade
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  • 2 weeks later...

Special Memorial check came back "negative", no 7th Battalion Serjeants of the London Regiment listed as such (CWGC Link), in France, any time during the Great War.

Edited by laughton
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  • 4 months later...

Ranking the cases on the Unknown Blog List and it would appear that I have not yet checked the location of the London Regiment units in March and April 1918.

 

For March and April 1918 there are six (6) Serjeants listed on the Arras Memorial and two (2) on the Pozieres Memorial (CWGC Link).

 

Arras Memorial has four (4) of the 1st/23rd and one (1) each of the 1st/19th and 1st/22nd.

 

Pozieres Memorial for April 1917 has one each in the 17th and 1st/7th. The 1st/7th had transferred and amalgamated with the 2nd/7th by that time, so Serjeant Albert John Ward #351739 is a candidate that must be checked. I had ste the cut-off date too early at 5 April 1918 as this death was 27 April 1918.

 

On 25 April 1918 the 1st/7th was in the Cachy Sector 62d.U.2 in reserve and withdrew to 62d.N.32.c. That path does not take them through or near to where the remains were recovered at 62d.K.27/31. Their path was to the southwest and west of Villers-Bretonneux.

 

Perhaps there are more that I need to check?

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In the back of my mind I know must face the inevitable question:

 

"Will the CWGC treat this case the same as they did for Lts. McDonald and Wylie and ask that we account for every Unknown Serjeant of the London Regiment in France during the Great War?"

 

That was a lot of work in the McDonald-Wylie case - took more than 16 months. I don't think I am ready to do that again. That would mean, just stick to the one Serjeant that is known to be of the 7th Battalion (1st/7th, 2nd/7th also in records not changed). The second Serjeant has no unit designation. Problem then is that we can't distinguish Chapman from Angus, but we do know Hempstead was not in the area. So the only way we win here is if they accept BOTH Serjeants as being in this cemetery.

 

The new 2019 CWGC directive also indicates that they are unlikely to deal with cases of "Special Memorials", clearly the case here.

 

As such, I think this case has the facts to name the two men but it has to go to the bottom of the list.

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  • 6 months later...

Checking on the other Serjeants during that period in August 1918.

 

This one is an error on the CWGC site as Frederick William Taylor is "1/24th Bn London Regiment" not "124th Bn". Transcription error (Soldiers Effects).

 

I have added the Bn. The 1st/22nd and 1st/24th were both in the 142nd Brigade, 47th (2nd London) Division. The 7th was in the 174th Brigade, 58th (2/1st London) Division. These are as per the LLT.

 

The 1st/22nd Battalion was at Mericourt L'Abbe 62d.J.3 on 20 August 1918 (war diary page 782 of 818) and moved into the trenches 62d.K.17.a on the 22nd. The 142nd Brigade was operational in Tailles Woods which run from 62d.K.23 north into 62d.K.12 (war diary page 568 pf 818). The remains were recovered in K.27 and K.31, which is 2,800 to 5,000 yards to the southwest. In the area for sure but unlikely their remains. Angus and Chapman are in the correct location.

 

TAMPLIN

Serjeant 680740

GEORGE FREDERICK 22 August 1918

VIEW RECORD

1st/22nd London Regiment

TAYLOR

Serjeant 735009

FREDERICK WILLIAM 22 August 1918

VIEW RECORD

1st/24th London Regiment

JORDAN

Serjeant 723288

HENRY JABEZ 22 August 1918

VIEW RECORD

1st/24th London Regiment

ANGUS

Serjeant 350270

GEORGE 09 August 1918

VIEW RECORD

7th London Regiment

CHAPMAN

Serjeant 350220

ALFRED 08 August 1918

VIEW RECORD

7th London Regiment

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All the known men (10) from the London Regiment in Heath Cemetery were from the 8th-10th of August: 

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?regiment=London%2BRegiment&cemetery=HEATH%2BCEMETERY%2c%2BHARBONNIERES

 

Four (4) from the 7th Bn, five (5) from the 10th Bn and one (1) from the 19th Bn. From the LLT it must be the 1/19th as they are in the 47th Division. No idea for the 10th.

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BIG PROBLEM! The CWGC lists the LONDON REGIMENT but also a number of the individual battalions of the London Regiment as a separate regiment. They should all be as the "London Regiment" and then the individual units (Battalions) - or am I missing something?. I never noticed this before, so it raises the question as to whether they do this with other regiments?

 

That would add days of work to sort out this case, if it was possible. Wonder what @Chris_Baker thinks about this one?

 

Example, CURRIE 388009 is shown as 8th Bn London Regiment (Post Office Rifles) but if you use "London Regiment" and that number he does not show up (this link).

 

You get this with a search of REGIMENT (London) and BATTALION (8th):

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?regiment=London%2BRegiment&unit=8th

 

You get ZERO if you search REGIMENT (London) BATTALION as "1/8th" or "1st/8th".

 

The Long Long Trail shows this, as an example:

Quote

1/7th (City of London) Battalion
August 1914 : at Finsbury Square. Record same as 1/6th Bn.
2 February 1918 : transferred to 174th Brigade in 58th (2/1st London) Division, absorbed the disbanded 2/7th Bn and renamed 7th Bn.

 

1/8th (City of London) Battalion (Post Office Rifles)
August 1914 : at 130 Bunhill Row. Record same as 1/6th Bn.
2 February 1918 : transferred to 174th Brigade in 58th (2/1st London) Division, absorbed the disbanded 2/8th Bn and renamed 8th Bn.

 

I checked for those in August 1918 just to keep the list shorter and applicable to this topic. The results might change if you change the years?

 

The 7th Bn men show up under REGIMENT = London UNIT = 7th (CWGC Link) but not those that are UNIT= 8th, which means they used different critieria. Same problem if you check the 5th Battalion (CWGC Link = 0) or "LONDON REGIMENT (London Rifle Brigade)" (CWGC Link = 88)

 

There were 973 UK soldiers lost on 8 August 1918 in France (CWGC Link). Of those 251 are on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial (CWGC Link). If you download that file and sort it into REGIMENTS then your mind will go nuts! Then you hit the SECONDARY REGIMENTS as well.

 

Check out this fellow: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1739948/baugh,-william-george/

No mention of "2/10th (County of London) Battalion (Hackney)" as shown on the LLT.

Rifleman BAUGH, WILLIAM GEORGE

Service Number 48915

Died 08/08/1918

Aged 18

Rifle Brigade

posted to 2nd/10th Bn.
London Regiment

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I remembered this morning that the CWGC database has the same confusion with the Canadian units. The vast majority of the Canadian Expeditionary Force was the "Numbered Battalions", all of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. There was no official regiment affiliation, although men did link themselves to the pre-war militia regiments with which they served (i.e. 15th Infantry Battalion was mainly 48th Highlanders of Canada). The odd Canadian units, which the CWGC lists separately from the regiment name "Canadian Infantry" were the named battalions:

  • The Royal Canadian Regiment
  • Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry
  • 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Canadian Mounted Rifles

That means if you are searching for a Canadian Sergeant that is missing from the "infantry", you must search all the Sergeants in the "Canadian Infantry" and then add those "named battalions", or find all missing Army Sergeants and delete the ones that are not infantry.

 

It appears that the issues with the "London Regiment" may not carry over to other UK Regiments, as I noticed Chris says this at the top of that LLT page: (the underlining is mine)

Quote

The London Regiment was unusual. Not only were all of its battalions of the Territorial Force (although the first four were affiliated to the other City of London regiment, the all-regular Royal Fusiliers) but each battalion was regarded as a corps in its own right.

 

The solution to find the Serjeants who had a London Regiment affiliation is to first get all the Serjeants on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial into Excel and then sort those on "Regiment" and "Secondary Regiment" so that you can see how they were listed. The end result is thirty-six (36) Serjeants that have some link to the London Regiment.


In the end it turms out that the results don't change, as we know from the COG-BR 2301363 that it was a Serjeant with some affiliation to a "7th" in the London Regiment and that the burial date was probably the 13th of August 1918, so someone dead prior to that date. That leaves us only with Chapman and Angus given that Hempstead will killed a month later. That is another issue where the CWGC database has dates as "day/month/year" so they sort numerically on the "day" first, when you really want year, then month, then day. Don't try and change the date format when it is in EXCEL or you scramble all the dates as they are not all loaded as the same format!

 

Here is the list of the Serjeants. Note that the three of the eight "Royal Fusiliers" don't have any form of numeric reference to their battalion, those being the three with the "Royal Fusiliers" and secondary regiment as "London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)". For example Serjeant Jacob John Franks was "2/2nd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers)" - here is his MIC and SE. I could not find Ashlee.

 

surname forename death regiment secondary_regiment unitshipsquadron #
KIRKBRIDE RICHARD  W 1/9/1918 London Regiment Labour Corps 20th Bn. '1199'
BARNARD BRUCE 1/9/1918 London Regiment   1st/20th Bn. '630967'
PARTRIDGE WILLIAM 1/9/1918 London Regiment   1st/23rd Bn. '713503'
POOLE JOHN EDWARD STANLEY 1/9/1918 London Regiment   1st/13th Kensington Bn. '490344'
WOODHOUSE CHARLES 1/9/1918 London Regiment   1st/17th Bn. '572931'
BARKER FRANK JAMES 1/9/1918 London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles)   1st/21st Bn. '652614'
ADDISON R L (ALIAS George Abbott) 1/9/1918 London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)   (4631). 2nd/4th Bn. '298109'
ASHLEE HERBERT 1/9/1918 Royal Fusiliers London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)   '82667'
FRANKS JACOB JOHN 1/9/1918 Royal Fusiliers London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)   'L/17782'
PARKYN JAMES ROBERT HENRY 2/9/1918 London Regiment   1st/22nd Bn. '680040'
MAY HERBERT CHARLES 2/9/1918 London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles)   1st/21st Bn. '651230'
MYERS JUDAH 2/9/1918 London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles)   1st/21st Bn. '652298'
CHAPMAN ALFRED 8/8/1918 London Regiment   7th Bn. '350220'
THOMAS JOHN E. 8/8/1918 London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)   1st Bn. attd. 2nd/2nd Bn. '201020'
WHARAM ROBERT WILLIAM 8/8/1918 London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)   2nd/2nd Bn. '231674'
HEMPSTEAD HENRY ARTHUR 8/9/1918 London Regiment   "B" Coy. 7th Bn. '350134'
ANGUS GEORGE 9/8/1918 London Regiment   (1461).  "C" Coy. 1st/7th Bn. '350270'
MOSELY CHARLES THOMAS 9/8/1918 London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)   2nd/4th Bn. '280745'
GRACE SIDNEY 9/8/1918 London Regiment (The Rangers)   "D" Coy. 2nd/12th Bn. '470401'
BURTON FREDERICK CHARLES 10/9/1918 London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)   1st/2nd Bn. '233170'
FOY JOCELYN 12/9/1918 London Regiment (The Rangers)   1st/12th Bn. '470263'
RADLEY WILLIAM 12/9/1918 London Regiment (The Rangers)   2nd/12th Bn. '472154'
JORDAN HENRY JABEZ 22/08/1918 London Regiment   1st/24th Bn. '723288'
TAMPLIN GEORGE FREDERICK 22/08/1918 London Regiment   1st/22nd Bn. '680740'
TAYLOR FREDERICK WILLIAM 22/08/1918 London Regiment   124th Bn. '735009'
SNEATH CHARLES VALENTINE 24/08/1918 London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles)   1st/21st Bn. '652245'
TANNER CHARLES J. 24/08/1918 London Regiment (Post Office Rifles) London Regiment 8th Bn. '372960'
BANSOR ARTHUR 24/08/1918 London Regiment (Queen Victoria's Rifles)   1st/9th Bn. '393804'
SHEPHERD JOSEPH 25/08/1916 London Regiment   1st/20th Bn. '633170'
CHAMP PHILIP 25/08/1918 London Regiment (Queen Victoria's Rifles)   2nd/9th Bn. '391478'
AUTY LOUIS H. 28/08/1918 London Regiment (City of London Rifles)   (2855). 6th Bn. '348111'
VOWLES SYDNEY WALLACE 28/08/1918 London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)   1st Bn. attd. 3rd Bn. '200960'
JONES ARTHUR EVANS 28/08/1918 Royal Fusiliers London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)   'L/17805'
WALKER FREDERICK H. 28/09/1918 London Regiment (Queen's Westminster Rifles) 1st/16th Bn. '550691'
HILL ROBERT DUNCAN 29/08/1918 London Regiment (London Scottish)   1st/14th Bn. '510014'
ASHMAN ERNEST GEORGE 30/08/1918 London Regiment (London Irish Rifles)   1st/18th Bn. '593390'

 

Where this analysis becomes important is when you look back to the very first post in this topic where I made this INCORRECT STATEMENT:

 

Quote

There is another Unknown Serjeant of the London Regiment on COG-BR 2301388 found at 62d.K.27.d.70.90 but we don't have a battalion or date. That may not matter as during the Battle of Amiens in August 1918 there are only two missing Serjeants of the London Regiment, chapman and Angus, so that means we have a case for a "Special Memorial A". 

 

In actual fact, these Serjeants are also London Regiment Serjeants and I don't know if they would appear different (i.e. the numerals) as Royal Fusiliers or Rangers? I have not yet checked to see where they were at the time, but that will be done soon. In this case (not so with Ashlee, Franks and Jones) they did have the battalion affiliations. Only these ones are important here, for the first Unknown Serjeant, as they died prior to the 13th of August 1918. For the second Unknown Serjeant, we don't have a date, so I have to account for all Unknown London Regiment Serjeants lost at this location at any time during the Great War. Heath Cemetery was made after the armistice, so there is no set date for burials.

 

THOMAS JOHN E. 8/8/1918 London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) 1st Bn. attd. 2nd/2nd Bn. '201020'
WHARAM ROBERT WILLIAM 8/8/1918 London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) 2nd/2nd Bn. '231674'
MOSELY CHARLES THOMAS 9/8/1918 London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) 2nd/4th Bn. '280745'
GRACE SIDNEY 9/8/1918 London Regiment (The Rangers) "D" Coy. 2nd/12th Bn. '470401'

 

The second unknown Serjeant is beside Pte. G. T. Taylor #295295, 4th Bn London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) died 8 August 1918. That makes Sjt. Mosely #280745 the most likely candidate for that grave 8.A.6 (COG-BR).

 

So where we stand now:

 

  1. The first Unknown Serjeant on COG-BR 2301363 is either Alfred Chapman or George Angus and we do not know which one, nor do I see any way to separate them. The file only has merit if both of them are in this cemetery, in which case it could be a Special Memorial. If either of them is found at any cemetery in the future, then the other one is this Serjeant. That has happened before!
     
  2. The second Unknown Serjeant on COG-BR 2301388 is more likely to be Serjeant Mosely, that either Chapman or Angus, so that kills the concept of Special Memorial. I did not see this at the start because of the different listings on theC data base for the various London Regiments.
     
  3. It might be possible to drop the case of Chapman and Angus but go forward with a case for Mosely. To do that, I would have to prove that he is the only Serjeant lost with any version of the London Regiement at any time during the war. If any other Serjeant affiliated with the London Regiment (or variations) was lost near 62d.K.27.d.70.90, then there is no case to take forward.
     
  4. This case goes to Short Listed Candidates and the "Share a Grave" concept. We know it is either Chaman or Angus in Heath Cemetery grave 6.J.4, so if you are family of either one them, this is where to pay your respects.
Edited by laughton
updated and added final status 4 points
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