Capt A F Elliott RAMC

[Sunbird]

Hi, 

 

I've been researching my great-grandfather Capt A F Elliott RAMC for over two years now, and am nearly at the end of the war for him. My own grandfather wrote in his short biography of his father, that he was actually wounded during the war, "A.F.E. returned from the war wounded in 1917 and took up his work again". I have found no reference to his being wounded anywhere in the various war diaries I have used for research, and am wondering if there might be other resources out there in the archives that I don't know about that may help me find out more about this.

 

AFE spent his career as one of the school doctors at Oundle, who are putting up an exhibition to commemorate the centenary of the war, and I am putting together something for them about Arthur. I feel I have almost everything, except this reference to him being wounded. 

 

Here's a bit of background: Capt. A F Elliott RAMC served with 38th Division, 48th and 50th Field Ambulances, in the Somme area between Dec 1915 - Dec 1916, during which time he kept his own diary ('published' here... www.afelliott.com). His own diary ended on Dec 22nd 1916. After that I have followed him via the various war diaries on Ancestry and National Archives - notably ADMS Divisional diaries, and the FA diaries (48th and 50th). After the battle of Arras in April 1917, he was posted to No.2 Stationary Hospital in Abbeville. I found the war diary for No.2 Stationary Hosp. as well as the ADMS for 'Abbeville and Amiens area'. Both of these diaries mention Capt. Elliott's arrival on 6/5/17, ("Capt A.F. Elliott RAMC (TC) reported for duty"). I believed that he finished the war at No.2 Stationary, until last week when flicking through ADMS 'Abbeville and Amiens area' diary, I discovered that he was posted to 58th Div. 30th August 1917, Ypres area. There's a fair bit about him in that arena, (2/3 HC FA, No.4 CCS and 290 RFA). According to the 58th Div ADMS, he '...proceeded to England' October 29 1917. There is no mention of him being wounded. His medal roll card states he resigned his commission in Novemeber 1917. 

 

I am pretty sure that I now know his war service quite thoroughly, all except this 'wounding'. I would be so grateful for any help or pointers that could shed some light on this.

 

Many thanks,

Christopher

 

 

 

 

[alf mcm]

Christopher,

   Your grandfather, Arthur Forbes Elliott studied at Cambridge University, in Emmanuel College. He is mentioned in Alumni Cantabrigiensis https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-FjmQ4xTgkQC&pg=PA404&lpg=PA404&dq=arthur+forbes+elliott+cambridge&source=bl&ots=XBqwpfri24&sig=DRcsC5_bqkX_6TFe69m8lry3kLA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjh-b6tkYneAhXFAsAKHaFSAYcQ6AEwAnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=arthur forbes elliott cambridge&f=false

  It s possible the University and College had the equivalent of 'school magazines'. His injury may be mentioned there.

  It is also possible that Oundle had a school magazine.

  You could also check local newspapers. This article from the Northants Evening Telegrapf, via Findmypast, is a bit late for your purposes, but should be of interest;- https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000651%2f19390113%2f294

  You may find an obituary in a local newspaper.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[HarryBrook]

The London Gazette notification of him relinquishing his commission makes no mention of a reason such as "on account of ill-health caused by wounds". His name appears in a list of relinquishment of commissions.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30423/supplement/12992

[charlie962]

On his MIC it says he 'resigned Nov/17' which he could have done for a variety of reasons. So no help there.

 

A search of Daily Casualty Lists for Capain AF Elliott RAMC  didn't bring anything up.

 

Charlie

[seaJane]

Emmanuel College Cambridge archives:

https://www.emma.cam.ac.uk/about/history/archives/. 

 

Matriculated 1896 is the date they will need.

 

The college yearbook is a more likely source of information than the university, I suspect.

 

Best wishes,

 

sJ

 

 

[Sunbird]

13 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Christopher,

   Your grandfather, Arthur Forbes Elliott studied at Cambridge University, in Emmanuel College. He is mentioned in Alumni Cantabrigiensis https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-FjmQ4xTgkQC&pg=PA404&lpg=PA404&dq=arthur+forbes+elliott+cambridge&source=bl&ots=XBqwpfri24&sig=DRcsC5_bqkX_6TFe69m8lry3kLA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjh-b6tkYneAhXFAsAKHaFSAYcQ6AEwAnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=arthur forbes elliott cambridge&f=false

  It s possible the University and College had the equivalent of 'school magazines'. His injury may be mentioned there.

  It is also possible that Oundle had a school magazine.

  You could also check local newspapers. This article from the Northants Evening Telegrapf, via Findmypast, is a bit late for your purposes, but should be of interest;- https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000651%2f19390113%2f294

  You may find an obituary in a local newspaper.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

Thank you Alf, I have seen the obituaries and there is no mention of him being wounded.

13 hours ago, HarryBrook said:

The London Gazette notification of him relinquishing his commission makes no mention of a reason such as "on account of ill-health caused by wounds". His name appears in a list of relinquishment of commissions.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30423/supplement/12992

Thank you Harry. That confirms his end of service.

[Sunbird]

12 hours ago, charlie962 said:

On his MIC it says he 'resigned Nov/17' which he could have done for a variety of reasons. So no help there.

 

A search of Daily Casualty Lists for Capain AF Elliott RAMC  didn't bring anything up.

 

Charlie

Thank you Charlie. His ADMS 58 Div. did keep records of wounded officers in his war diary from this time Sept-Nov '17 so with your info it is looking more likely he wasn't perhaps 'conventionally' wounded. 

[Sunbird]

12 hours ago, seaJane said:

Emmanuel College Cambridge archives:

https://www.emma.cam.ac.uk/about/history/archives/. 

 

Matriculated 1896 is the date they will need.

 

The college yearbook is a more likely source of information than the university, I suspect.

 

Best wishes,

 

sJ

 

 

Thank you sJ

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Sunbird said:

'conventionally' wounded

There's a word that could cover all sorts of things. The scale of horrors that these medical men had to deal with cannot have left them unmarked.

 

The Casualty Lists, as available through several sites, are not complete. 'Returning from the War wounded' doesn't mean he was wounded just before he returned. It could have been anytime after he arrived in France 1915 perhaps ?

 

Charlie

[TEW]

20 hours ago, Sunbird said:

I discovered that he was posted to 58th Div. 30th August 1917, Ypres area. There's a fair bit about him in that arena, (2/3 HC FA, No.4 CCS and 290 RFA). According to the 58th Div ADMS, he '...proceeded to England' October 29 1917. There is no mention of him being wounded. His medal roll card states he resigned his commission in Novemeber 1917. 

 

I've just looked through 58 Div. ADMS and can see his arrival 1/9/1917 posted 2/3 HC FA (or possibly 2/2 HC FA?) and his later posting to 290 RFA 22/9/1917 but can't see the 4CCS ref or that he left 58 Div (proceeded to England' October 29 1917). Are these last bits from another diary?

 

Do you have a date for 4 CCS?

 

Also looked at all 3 HC diaries and none mention him at all, not 100% certain if the ADMS says 2/3 or 2/2 HC FA on 1/9/17.

 

I also spotted that a Capt. Hayes-Smith was not fit for duty and a Capt. Maxwell was evacuated to UK. Neither show on casualty lists.

TEW

 

[Sunbird]

12 minutes ago, TEW said:

 

I've just looked through 58 Div. ADMS and can see his arrival 1/9/1917 posted 2/3 HC FA (or possibly 2/2 HC FA?) and his later posting to 290 RFA 22/9/1917 but can't see the 4CCS ref or that he left 58 Div (proceeded to England' October 29 1917). Are these last bits from another diary?

 

Do you have a date for 4 CCS?

 

Also looked at all 3 HC diaries and none mention him at all, not 100% certain if the ADMS says 2/3 or 2/2 HC FA on 1/9/17.

 

I also spotted that a Capt. Hayes-Smith was not fit for duty and a Capt. Maxwell was evacuated to UK. Neither show on casualty lists.

TEW

 

Hi TEW, thank you for this. 

My understanding of his 58th Division time was from 2 sources: 58th Div ADMS diary and 2/3 HC FA diary (WO-95-2297) and it is the 2/3 diary that he is mentioned as temporary duty to 4 CCS (however this is Capt F Elliott, no initial A. This diary doesn't actually announce his arrival either. Then on 29.10.17 2/3 HC FA Captain ELLIOTT RAMC TC proceeded to England. (No mention of leave). The 4 CCS diary is just casualty figures I think.

Thank you again, CE

[Sunbird]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

There's a word that could cover all sorts of things. The scale of horrors that these medical men had to deal with cannot have left them unmarked.

 

The Casualty Lists, as available through several sites, are not complete. 'Returning from the War wounded' doesn't mean he was wounded just before he returned. It could have been anytime after he arrived in France 1915 perhaps ?

 

Charlie

Absolutely Charlie it may have happened earlier. In fact he was with the 8 East Lancs at Monchy during April 1917, which involved 3 days and nights and snow during the battle. Shortly after, he wrote a report of problems with casualty clearance which I think is in the 37 division ADMS or 50th or 48th field ambulance diary. After this he went to No.2 Stationary. I figured he'd probably had enough by then, but then the 58th Division duty began at Ypres.

[TEW]

Ah, yes I can see the entries. But in WO95/2997. Can't really add much, I looked in 4CCS diary and same for DDMS and DMS. The only thing I noticed as a meeting 19/9/1917 between 58 Div. ADMS and either DMS or DDMS regarding a shortage of MOs in 58 Div.

TEW

[Sunbird]

Thank you TEW, yes I meant WO95/2997 apologies!

I came across something similar in ADMS Abbeville & Ameins Area WO95/4009 26/7/17 "Urgent call for 6 medical officers..." with an indication that one of the MOs would be taken from No.2 Stationary Hospital, and the six "ordered to report to ADMS of 41st, 57th and 58th Division".

 

[Sunbird]

TEW you mentioned looking at DDMS and DMS diaries. These are at Corps level I guess, and I think the 58 Div changed Corps around this time. Do you have reference no.s for these diaries you could pass on to me?

Best

Christopher

[TEW]

I'll have to double check for the TNA files but the notes I have with me say 58 Div moved from 3rd Army 17 Corps to 5th Army 18 Corps 25/8/17. Then were in 19 Corps from 28/9/17.

TEW

[TEW]

Christopher,

 

The diaires I looked at previously were;

18 Corps WO95/956/1 Jan-30th Sept 1917. 58 Div. joined 18 Corps 25/8/1917

18 Corps WO95/956/2 1st Oct 1917 onwards. 58 Div. moved to 19 Corps 28/9/1917

19 Corps WO95/969/1 Feb - Oct 1917.

5th Army WO95/532/9 Sept 1917

5th Army WO95/533/1 Oct 1917

 

That's quite a few diaries that cover his movements 1/9/1917 to 29/10/1917 and I didn't see much in them that's of a lot of help.

TEW

 

[Sunbird]

Thank you for this TEW. I've never looked at Corps or Army level diaries before.

Christopher