Photo identification - regiment?

[Guest]

[Steven Broomfield]

Oh my word! Artillerymen in Brodricks, which a fine display of qualification, rank, service and other badges.

 

Not to mention some pretty damn fine moustaches.

[Toby Brayley]

Artillery Volunteers, what a stunning image!  

[Toby Brayley]

c1903 Mix of pill box cap and the Universal Forage Cap (Brodrick). 4 pointed Proficient star for Proficient NCOs. The Lozenge on the cuff is for Volunteers returning efficient for that year. The Stars on the cuff are the Volunteer Efficiency Star , for returning efficient for 5 years. There are some men with quite a few years service there! 

 

I spot an Egypt Medal and Khedive's Star, so that individual served in Egypt during the 1880s. 

 

Regards

Toby 

Edited 15 October , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

This is the style of hat they are wearing.Although in better condition than mine!

 

Regards

Toby

[daggers]

And a bearded chaplain!

[Robin Garrett]

And a bandsman (third from left, back row)

[Guest]

I have been trying to find out what uniform this is (attached) I assume it is the same as the above?

I am guessing that my photo is connected to the  Glamorganshire Artilley Volunteers? Any thoughts?

[Toby Brayley]

 

1 hour ago, Basha said:

I have been trying to find out what uniform this is (attached) I assume it is the same as the above?

I am guessing that my photo is connected to the  Glamorganshire Artilley Volunteers? Any thoughts?

 

 

Hello Basha they are indeed Artillery Volunteers in your photograph.  Do you have a better view of their shoulder straps as the rest is a bit to generic for exact unit Identification. 

Edited 4 February , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Guest]

Sadly no, this all I have apart from his address from the various 10 yearly census. It's a shame they are not wearing belts.

[PhilB]

On ‎15‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 16:20, Robin Garrett said:

And a bandsman (third from left, back row)

What is the significance of the crown over the harp on his arm?

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, PhilB said:

What is the significance of the crown over the harp on his arm?

 

It means he is the Bandmaster, Phil.  The RA had a different lyre badge (and different trumpeters badge too) to the other Arms and Services.  As a volunteer he could not be a warrant officer like regulars and militia, but he was still a ‘sergeant major’.  Another feature of his rank and status is the twisted gold cords on his shoulders rather than shoulder straps.  It’s interesting that he’s wearing his badge on the upper arm rather than lower arm as a regular would.  I’m assuming this is because of all the volunteer sleeve badges.

Edited 4 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Basha said:

I have been trying to find out what uniform this is (attached) I assume it is the same as the above?

I am guessing that my photo is connected to the  Glamorganshire Artilley Volunteers? Any thoughts?

 

 

The white cord trim indicates that they are Artillery Militia.  Volunteers had scarlet cord that did not show up well in contemporary film and Regulars had golden yellow cord trim.  They were garrison Artillery for coastal defence and based and headquartered at Swansea.  See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Glamorgan_Artillery_Militia

Edited 4 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

  It’s interesting that he’s wearing his badge on the upper arm rather than lower arm as a regular would.  I’m assuming this is because of all the volunteer sleeve badges.

Thanks, Froggy. That`s what threw me. It looked like a CSM badge in the wrong place - which is what it is!  What do you make of the 3rd from the left, seated?

[PhilB]

On ‎15‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 15:41, daggers said:

And a bearded chaplain!

What identifies him as a chaplain?

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Thanks, Froggy. That`s what threw me. It looked like a CSM badge in the wrong place - which is what it is!  What do you make of the 3rd from the left, seated?

 

He is a Chaplain of Volunteers.  As they were not officially a part of the RAChD (the various church bodies had refused to follow directions from the army), they were not permitted to wear army Insignia, or hold (honorary) military style rank, but they did follow the dress regulations for clothing.  

 

The 1881 Cardwell Reforms (of 1st July) embraced the Militia (paid auxiliaries) but left the Volunteers (unpaid auxiliaries) out in the cold. This was largely because the Volunteer’s County Associations feared losing their semi-autonomy.  That situation remained in most, but not all respects, until Haldane's reform of 1908 creating the Territorial Force.

Edited 4 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Thanks, Froggy. That`s what threw me. It looked like a CSM badge in the wrong place - which is what it is!  What do you make of the 3rd from the left, seated?

 

There were no substantive sergeant majors in the Volunteers and only ‘acting sergeant major’ was permitted (thus removing the opportunity for warrant officer rank).  This was because they were seen as having an amateur status, in a way that the Militia did not.  This is often misunderstood when looked at through the prism of today’s attitudes.

Edited 4 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The white cord trim indicates that they are Artillery Militia.  

 

 

Were the Militia eligible for the Effciency Stars ? 

[PhilB]

Any comment on the guy sitting far right and his beard growth? 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Were the Militia eligible for the Effciency Stars ? 

 

A good question and I don’t know Toby.    Presumably they must have been because the white lace (and hat bands) of RA Militia is unmistakable in Basha’s photo and remained in use until 1908 (Militia Officers lace was silver).  RA Volunteers had red hat bands and lace that showed relatively dull on orthochromatic film.

Edited 5 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

 

A good question and I don’t know.    Presumably they must have been because the white lace (and hat bands) of RA Militia is unmistakable and remained in use until 1908.  RA Volunteers had red hat bands and lace that showed relatively dull on orthochromatic film.

 I am in complete agreement with you uniform wise,  Another oddity! 

 

 I am sure the Militia did not use the Stars. Could it be NCOs gold braid or a another unique VF artillery uniform? 

Edited 5 February , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 I am in complete agreement with you uniform wise,  Another oddity! 

 

 I am sure the Militia did not use the Stars. Could it be NCOs gold braid or a another unique VF artillery uniform? 

 

Another excellent point.  The SNCOs RA frock’s gold braid does show up ‘light’ on orthochromatic film and that would match with what we see on cuffs, rank stripes and badges, cap bands and at the base of collars.  Perhaps the photo’s exposure, or very bright light conditions caused the peculiarly white appearance, I think you have identified the solution, as I don’t believe it’s a special, unit idiosyncrasy.

Edited 5 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

What an odd group. All sorts of strange features. NCO of artillery with Geneva Cross ......... if trained he could have the SB in circle badge, but not the red cross.

The bandmaster [and he has got to be, no doubts there] is in the back row, whereas we would expect him to be near pole position. His use of the crown badge looks like a wild improvisation, as most definitely not in VF Regs.

Also a BSM without proficiency star over chevrons. Surely he is proficient?

All in all a good example of the VF "make it up as you go along" attitude to the regulations.