Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Leonard Patrick, 3rd Battalion Tank Corps ('C' Company)


abowell97

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

 

I’m currently researching my Great, great uncle Leonard Patrick (200593 Tanks, 2712 MGC), who served in the Tank Corps from November 1916 – January 1919. I have his full service record and nothing else, as he remained a Gunner he is never mentioned in any of the battalion war diaries during that time. He initially joined the 13th Battery Motor Machine Gun Corps in 1915, however transferred to the Tank Corps within weeks of landing in France (Sept 1916). His only break between then and the end of the war was Christmas 1917, one or two short periods in hospital and what appears to be passing out of the 6-pounder School in May 1917.  

 

After raking through his service record, conflicting terms are starting to confuse matters. He was officially described as 3rd Battalion, C Company. On more than one occasion, he was also described as being in C Battalion and 3rd (L) Battalion. One assumes C Battalion was the initial term for 3rd Battalion? I’m unsure of the significance of the (L) part, too.

 

Is there any way of finding out what number company he was with within 3rd Batt, C Company? This would make the war diaries considerably more useful as I’d then be able to pin down his units actions more clearly.

 

Any help is appreciated,

Alex.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Bns were originally given letters to differentiate them from each other and so from 1 Jan 1917 (when the Bn was formed from C Coy, one of the 5 original companies) until early 1918 it was C Bn.  At that stage the Companies were given numbers.  That all changed in 1918 and Bns took on numbers and the Companies went to letters.  3rd Bn became a light tank battalion, equipped with Whippets, and that's why there is the letter L (for Light) after its name. 

 

C Coy is the company he was in.

Edited by Gareth Davies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alex. I've been looking at him as part of my MMGS research. From his record he was sent over to France 10/9/1916 and joined base depot at Camiers. He posted out to 13th Battery on 4th November and joined them on 5th. This is noted in the 13th War Diary as "3 reinforcements arrived from M.G. base depot". By this time the battery was already preparing to disband. They handed in the motorcycles on 13th November and disbanded on 6th. I've seen with the other batteries also that were disbanded at the same time, in the weeks leading up, there were a number of personnel movements (both officers and other ranks), they obviously had other plans for. At the same time you also see some late arrivals to these batteries. The original members of the battery who qualified for the 14/15 Star show up in numbers on the Tank Corps 14/15 Star roll. His record fit's in with the other MMG men - by other service  records they were posted out direct  to  the tank battalions in the field a couple of weeks later. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

That all changed in 1918 and Bns took on numbers and the Companies went to letters.  3rd Bn became a light tank battalion, equipped with Whippets, and that's why there is the letter L (for Light) after its name. 

Ah, thanks very much. Would it be correct to assume that, prior to 1918, it wasn't a primarily light tank battalion? Seeing as he went to 6-pounder school in 1917 I took it that it's wasn't a light tank battalion before it restructured.

 

28 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

He posted out to 13th Battery on 4th November and joined them on 5th. This is noted in the 13th War Diary as "3 reinforcements arrived from M.G. base depot". By this time the battery was already preparing to disband. They handed in the motorcycles on 13th November and disbanded on 6th. I've seen with the other batteries also that were disbanded at the same time, in the weeks leading up, there were a number of personnel movements (both officers and other ranks), they obviously had other plans for.

 

Thanks David. I didn't look at the 13th Battery War Diary as he was only with them in France for about 15 days, but I wasn't aware the unit disbanded around this time, which makes sense. Oddly enough it looks as if there were over 5 weeks between him reaching the MGC Base at Camiers and him actually being posted to No.13 Battery, just in time for the Battery to begin disbanding!

Edited by abowell97
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

Ah, thanks very much. Would it be correct to assume that, prior to 1918, it wasn't a primarily light tank battalion? Seeing as he went to 6-pounder school in 1917 I took it that it's wasn't a light tank battalion before it restructured.

 

 

Thanks David. I didn't look at the 13th Battery War Diary as he was only with them in France for about 15 days, but I wasn't aware the unit disbanded around this time, which makes sense. Oddly enough it looks as if there were over 5 weeks between him reaching the MGC Base at Camiers and him actually being posted to No.13 Battery, just in time for the Battery to begin disbanding!

Though not named he was one of those three arrivals noted on 5th November. Prior to this he was likely in "the replacement pool" at Camiers. The active batteries had relatively few combat casualties, and probably lost more men due to sickness, and postings. Overall with the original MMGS men there were a high number of commissions, and also a good number out to other units such as Royal Engineers and to RFC.

Gareth Davies. I've often wondered about this disbanding of multiple MMG batteries all at one time. Obviously was a decision from higher up and planned sometime before November 1916 - but was it due to expansion of the tank units or to make up numbers in the existing units due to casualties from September  with combat experienced men rather than replacements direct from UK.? All those service records I've looked at these men were posted to existing  A,B or C directly in the field, and not sent back to UK to be retrained. Just a couple of weeks in Camiers and straight to it!

 

13th mmg.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

Ah, thanks very much. Would it be correct to assume that, prior to 1918, it wasn't a primarily light tank battalion? Seeing as he went to 6-pounder school in 1917 I took it that it's wasn't a light tank battalion before it restructured.

 

 

Correct.  C Bn was equipped with Mk I and Mk II tanks when it was in action at Arras in 1917. By 3rd Ypres it had re-equipped with Mk IVs which it kept until early 1918 when it switched to Whippets.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

 

Correct.  C Bn was equipped with Mk I and Mk II tanks when it was in action at Arras in 1917. By 3rd Ypres it had re-equipped with Mk IVs which it kept until early 1918 when it switched to Whippets.  

21 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Though not named he was one of those three arrivals noted on 5th November. Prior to this he was likely in "the replacement pool" at Camiers. The active batteries had relatively few combat casualties, and probably lost more men due to sickness, and postings. Overall with the original MMGS men there were a high number of commissions, and also a good number out to other units such as Royal Engineers and to RFC.

Ah, thanks very much for those clarifications. These certainly explains the transfers and unit naming over the course of the war a lot better. 

 

I realised I accidentally asked if there was a way of finding out what number company he was with, though I may have confused this with sections. No.7, 8 and 9 are often referred to as companies (this was prior to 1918, so are they corresponding to future A, B and C Companies?) though numbered sections are also used in the diary.

 

If the above is the case, would that suggest he was in "No.9 company, C-Battalion" before becoming "C Company, 3rd (L) Battalion" in 1918? - Though I may just be getting confused with how they subdivided units.

 

Thanks,

Alex

Edited by abowell97
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Alex, I've just had a look at his service record and your summary is correct - in 1918 he was in C Company of 3rd (L) Battalion, which would previously have been called No. 9 Company of C Battalion.

 

Each of the three companies in a battalion was further divided into four sections, but there's no indication which section he belonged to.  Unfortunately lists of men who were in different sections (and tank crews) are few and far between.  In most cases it comes down to whether a senior officer thought they were worth hanging on to, and whether his descendants thought they were worth giving to a museum.

 

Very frustrating, but at least you have his service record - without that it would be very hard even to find out his company.

 

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, johntaylor said:

Hi Alex, I've just had a look at his service record and your summary is correct - in 1918 he was in C Company of 3rd (L) Battalion, which would previously have been called No. 9 Company of C Battalion.

 

Each of the three companies in a battalion was further divided into four sections, but there's no indication which section he belonged to.  Unfortunately lists of men who were in different sections (and tank crews) are few and far between.  In most cases it comes down to whether a senior officer thought they were worth hanging on to, and whether his descendants thought they were worth giving to a museum.

 

Hi John,

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me. It'll certainly help me gain a better idea of his activities by going over the war diaries and focusing on No. 9 Company now (and later C-company) as I wasn't sure before. I didn't think many records went into such detail as to note the individuals within sections, but thankfully his service record was preserved, which makes up for the lack of any physical evidence of his service. Oddly enough his medal card has his MGC service number attributed to the Royal Field Artillery.

 

Thanks for the help,

Alex

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Alex, re the last point, this does seem odd but the medal cards for Motor Machine Gun Service men normally show Royal Field Artillery.  Apparently the MMGS was originally set up as part of the RFA, though many members later transferred to what became the Tank Corps.

 

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 16/10/2018 at 19:02, abowell97 said:

No. 9 Company

Hi Alex

 

If Leonard Patrick was No 9 Company at the battle of Cambrai, then he was in the same company as Cpl William Taylor Dawson (one of the original MMGS men who was a First Tank Crew, in action at Flers-Courcellette 15 Sep 1916). Dawson left a manuscript record of his war, which is held in the Tank Museum archive, but I have a transcript if you are interested. Leonard isn't mentioned by name. 

 

At Cambrai No9 Coy were C Bn's depth company, sent forward after the initial break in by No's 7 and 8 Coys, and they (No 9 Coy) exploited up to the depth of he Hindenburgh Line positions in order capture the strongpoints f Pam Pam Farm, Lateau Wood, Bonvais Farm and Le Quennel.

 

Regards Paul

 

Edited by pjwmacro
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

If Leonard Patrick was No 9 Company at the battle of Cambrai, then he was in the same company as Cpl William Taylor Dawson (one of the original MMGS men who was a First Tank Crew, in action at Flers-Courcellette 15 Sep 1916). Dawson left a manuscript record of his war, which is held in the Tank Museum archive, but I have a transcript if you are interested. Leonard isn't mentioned by name. 

 

Hi Paul

 

That transcript would be great, if it's no trouble. I've been wanting to go down to the Tank Museum for a while now but it's quite a jaunt from the Midlands...

Thanks very much for the additional information - I hope your writing is going well, too!

 

Regards,

Alex.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...