Translator's Uniform

[FROGSMILE]

I cannot help very much other than to say that there was no specific and permanent corps of translators as far as I am aware and so in most cases a man would join a specific part of the army, such as cavalry, artillery or infantry, be assigned to a regiment, and then detached for loan service as a translator on the basis of useful language skills.  I assume that is how your GF got from the artillery to duty as a translator of the language of a key ally.

[David Fatscher]

Many thanks for your speedy and informative reply, Frogsmile. Until yesterday - when I found this message thread - I had no knowledge of the Sphinx lapel so at least the picture (clearly showing such) confirms that my grandfather was indeed a translator and most likely attached to an ally at some point (based on the non-French uniform).

 

I suppose this may case doubt as to him using his language skills in support of Weygand as, unless my grandfather was so assigned briefly post-training in Lyon, I am assuming that Weygand was in France in 1917-1919 and not overseeing ops in Beirut or Russia. 

 

Anyway, now that I am more confident of his role in WW1, I may see if ANOLir (France's National Association of Reserve Linguist Officers and NCOs - http://www.anolir.org/ - effectively "The Order of the Sphinx") can help answer some of the questions I posted. They seem to have lots of resources from that period.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, David Fatscher said:

Many thanks for your speedy and informative reply, Frogsmile. Until yesterday - when I found this message thread - I had no knowledge of the Sphinx lapel so at least the picture (clearly showing such) confirms that my grandfather was indeed a translator and most likely attached to an ally at some point (based on the non-French uniform).

 

I suppose this may case doubt as to him using his language skills in support of Weygand as, unless my grandfather was so assigned briefly post-training in Lyon, I am assuming that Weygand was in France in 1917-1919 and not overseeing ops in Beirut or Russia. 

 

Anyway, now that I am more confident of his role in WW1, I may see if ANOLir (France's National Association of Reserve Linguist Officers and NCOs - http://www.anolir.org/ - effectively "The Order of the Sphinx") can help answer some of the questions I posted. They seem to have lots of resources from that period.

I think your intended course of action is likely to be fruitful.  In my experience (I attended various ‘staff rides’ on the Somme with French Army contributors) the French military have especial pride in their WW1 history, their relatively enormous Army fought valiantly, regardless of the mutinies during a difficult period, and there is not the ignominy of incompetence, collapse and defeat as there is for WW2.  I will be interested to learn what more you find out.

Edited 14 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Keith_history_buff]

In most cases, French soldiers performing interpreter duties were in 19e ETEM, but there are some exceptions to this. The only manner in which a French soldier would be documented by the British is when that individual is the recipient of a gallantry medal, and appears on one of the War Office lists in WO 388.

In addition to his matricule militaire, he should have a file at the Chateau de Vincennes, according to the form member who researched Jacques Vaché. I believe that for J K Rowling's great grandfather, Louis Volant, the researchers had his record retrieved for "Who do you think you are". I would advise posing the question on the French language equivalent of the GWF, Forum Pages 14-18, as there are some very knowledgeable people on that forum. Google translate goes some way towards breaking down the language barriers. 

[healdav]

Be careful here. Translate write things, interpreters speak, and never the twain shall meet. Very few translators can interpret, and very few interpreters would lower themselves to be translators.

Certainly no translator would be allowed by interpreters to try passing himself as one of them!

 

The confusion with Belgian uniforms might be because in 1914 the Belgian army was in the process of reorganising, and changing uniforms was a part of that.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, healdav said:

Be careful here. Translate write things, interpreters speak, and never the twain shall meet. Very few translators can interpret, and very few interpreters would lower themselves to be translators.

Certainly no translator would be allowed by interpreters to try passing himself as one of them!

 

The confusion with Belgian uniforms might be because in 1914 the Belgian army was in the process of reorganising, and changing uniforms was a part of that.

 

Yes, I had meant interpreters rather than translators, as per earlier in this thread.  A slip of the tongue, if you’ll excuse the pun.

Edited 14 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[SiegeGunner]

2 hours ago, healdav said:

Be careful here. Translate write things, interpreters speak, and never the twain shall meet. Very few translators can interpret, and very few interpreters would lower themselves to be translators.

Certainly no translator would be allowed by interpreters to try passing himself as one of them!

 

Pistols at dawn, David ... 

 

As a translator of long experience and former head of the translation and interpreting service of a government department, I've known a good many linguists who could and regularly did both interpret and translate at the very highest levels. 

 

Both sides in the Great War appear to have had translators somewhere in the rear who (only) translated substantial pieces of captured material (or large documents from allies), but I have no doubt that liaison interpreters in the field also translated on an ad hoc basis when the need arose.  

 

Mick 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 14 January , 2020 by SiegeGunner

[wrightdw]

Some Russian speakers (i.e. born in Russia) enlisting in the North Russia Relief Force of 1919 where specifically enlisted as translators into the Middlesex Regiment (which did not have any units in the NRRF) and given rank of Sergeant.

 

Four AIF volunteers for the NRRF who were born in Russia were diverted to Middlesex Regiment as Sergeant's where their comrades who enlisted with them were posted to units of the NRRF (45th Royal Fusiliers and 201st Bn., MGC specifically).

 

At least one Russian born ex-AIF volunteer slipped through and was posted to 45th Royal Fusiliers,

 

In some cases Russian speakers already serving with the British Army were posted as translators to NRRF units, for example Lieutenant Guy Tamplin, MC, RGA who had lived in Russia was posted as battalion translator to 1st Bn., Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry in North Russia.

[healdav]

16 hours ago, SiegeGunner said:

 

Pistols at dawn, David ... 

 

As a translator of long experience and former head of the translation and interpreting service of a government department, I've known a good many linguists who could and regularly did both interpret and translate at the very highest levels. 

 

Both sides in the Great War appear to have had translators somewhere in the rear who (only) translated substantial pieces of captured material (or large documents from allies), but I have no doubt that liaison interpreters in the field also translated on an ad hoc basis when the need arose.  

 

Mick 

 

You won't get many interpreters wiling to share a booth with a translator who is moonlighting. I've never come across it, and most say they would refuse point blank. And that's after working in the EU Institutions for over 30 years. If British interpreters don't care, I hope their professional organisation doesn't get to hear about it.

I have no doubt that in the field it happened, but not as a regular rule, and certainly not today.

Quite a lot of Luxembourgers were employed as interpreters by the French army, because to them German and French were both mother tongues.

Incidentally, I was amazed (as was the person this is about), to discover that at no point did the White House have a dedicated Russian interpreter. Whenever they needed one they went out and hired one! So much for hot lines and the rest.

I know this because I once met the Half British man who interpreted for for Reagan at the famous summit with Gorbachev. He told me that he was astounded one day to get a call from the White House asking him if he was interested in doing the job. His response was that he was in the process of retiring, but when they told him how much they were willing to pay, he said he would delay his retirement!

He was astounded to find that they had no in-house interpreters at all. That, I find not only bizarre, but very scary. "Hang on, I'll just get someone to ring someone who speaks Russian, then we can discuss this business of firing missiles at one another. It shouldn't take more than a few hours".

And, of course, the protocol people were furious at the State Dinner, that Reagan wanted his interpreter to sit between him and Gorbachev. They wanted the interpreters excluded. How they thought the two could speak to one another, is a mystery.

16 hours ago, SiegeGunner said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[David Fatscher]

On 14/01/2020 at 14:56, FROGSMILE said:

I think your intended course of action is likely to be fruitful.  In my experience (I attended various ‘staff rides’ on the Somme with French Army contributors) the French military have especial pride in their WW1 history, their relatively enormous Army fought valiantly, regardless of the mutinies during a difficult period, and there is not the ignominy of incompetence, collapse and defeat as there is for WW2.  I will be interested to learn what more you find out.

Just to provide an update, following a comprehensive response from ANOLiR. Below is a summary of what I have received:

From the photo:

·        Confirmation that my grandfather is wearing the interpreters' sphinx, and it is suggested that this is on a fabric whose colour is different from that of his uniform.

·        Uncertainty as to whether it is blue (for British Expeditionary Force) or green (America Expeditionary Force) but he is definitely not wearing a French uniform.

·        He is holding a kepi (French headgear) but ANOLiR not sure whether the buttons bear the sphinx or not

·        He doesn’t seem to have a rank (rank marks were worn at the tip of the sleeves), and at the time the photo was taken, he had not spent time on the frontline, at least not enough to wear the first chevron for 18 months there. Subsequent chevrons were awarded after every 6 months and were worn on the left-hand side shoulder.

 

From his war records (supplied to ANOLiR... this is not uniform specific but I’d be grateful if what follows tallies with this forum's collective wisdom, or anyone can point me to additional sources for clarification):

·        He joined French forces via the Foreign Legion and was attached to artillery battalions: 86th propelled heavy artillery then the 2nd regiment (Artillerie Coloniale) and then the 3rd Artillerie de Marine - but none of these had interpreters attached to them that had gone through the ANOLiR school so hence he is not listed in any capacity as an official interpreter.

·        Also, I’m informed these battalions were not deployed outside of France yet the war record states that my grandfather was sent to Beirut, probably - says ANOLiR - detached to a French or British EF in need of linguistic assistance. Similarly, re: his time in Northern Russia. I’m informed by ANOLiR that this campaign (1918/19) is not very well documented.

 

In conclusion, he was most likely employed on an individual basis, and away from the battalions he was nominally (war record-wise) “appointed to”. Almost, I guess, a freelancer.

 

Does the above make sense???

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, I do think that the gist of your conclusions makes sense.  Highly specialised, in demand language skills, at a time when dual, native language/English speakers (specifically) were in short supply compared with today’s internet driven world led, I think, to irregular solutions.  Ergo, detaching a man with such skills from service previously entirely with the artillery seems to me an entirely plausible sequence of events.

The uniform worn certainly was of a British (‘service dress’) style that, to varying degrees was emulated by Belgian, Portuguese, and American militaries.  Given the strong British involvement in the Middle East and (to a lesser degree) Russia, suggests that he might well, on the balance of probabilities, have been in British service. 

Edited 11 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Worth adding that the British Army encouraged officers to undertake foreign language courses pre-war, and noted their level of achievement in the Army List if qualified to Interpreter standard. The list ranges from Amharic, Arabic through French [many], German [many] to Japanese, Russian, Norwegian and on to Turkish.

 

Indian service saw  officers with career ambitions learning several languages. 

 

Most officers had schoolboy French, at least in the early days.

 

No doubt they were less good than true dual-language men, but here we have, once again, evidence of great professionalism post-Boer War.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Worth adding that the British Army encouraged officers to undertake foreign language courses pre-war, and noted their level of achievement in the Army List if qualified to Interpreter standard. The list ranges from Amharic, Arabic through French [many], German [many] to Japanese, Russian, Norwegian and on to Turkish.

 

Indian service saw  officers with career ambitions learning several languages. 

 

Most officers had schoolboy French, at least in the early days.

 

No doubt they were less good than true dual-language men, but here we have, once again, evidence of great professionalism post-Boer War.

Schoolboy French being the operative word.  Vide the infamous attempt by General Sir John French to communicate with General Charles Lanrezac in the latter’s native language during a conference at Rethel, in August 1914.  It’s incidents such as that which made clear the need for properly organised interpretation.  
Whilst it’s true that for British officers of the Indian Army it was obligatory to have some skill as linguists, being able to communicate in Farsi at a Durbar is not what was required on the Western Front.  I don’t think it was true that the British Army was particularly professional in that regard, but in fairness they had, arguably, not been that well prepared for a war in Europe.

Edited 11 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Schoolboy French being the operative word.  Vide the infamous attempt by General Sir John French to communicate with General Charles Lanrezac in the latter’s native language during a conference at Rethel, in August 1914.  It’s incidents such as that which made clear the need for properly organised interpretation.  
Whilst it’s true that for British officers of the Indian Army it was obligatory to have some skill as linguists, being able to communicate in Farsi at a Durbar is not what was required on the Western Front.  I don’t think it was true that the British Army was particularly professional in that regard, but in fairness they had, arguably, not been that well prepared for a war in Europe.

 

Out of interest I will look at the regular officers, at captain level or above, of a certain elite regiment, to see how many had Interpreter standard French in 1914. From memory, more than the odd one. And yes, one Lt Col. had more Indian language qualifications than you could shake a stick at.

 

PS French was a sailor in early life. What do we expect?

Edited 11 February , 2020 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Out of interest I will look at the regular officers, at captain level or above, of a certain elite regiment, to see how many had Interpreter standard French in 1914. From memory, more than the odd one. And yes, one Lt Col. had more Indian language qualifications than you could shake a stick at.

 

PS French was a sailor in early life. What do we expect?

There were no doubt exceptions, there always are, as we both know.  Whilst it will no doubt be interesting to get figures for one unit, it would be more meaningful to see the figures/statistics across infantry officers as a whole.

Edited 11 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

48 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There were no doubt exceptions, there always are, as we both know.  Whilst it will no doubt be interesting to get figures for one unit, it would be more meaningful to see the figures/statistics across infantry officers as a whole.

 

All you need is the Army List August 1914. Over to you!

As for me, I will deal with only one regiment.

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=20962418966&searchurl=bi%3D0%26ds%3D30%26bx%3Doff%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Darmy%2Blist%2Baugust%2B1914%26recentlyadded%3Dall&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title3

Edited 11 February , 2020 by Muerrisch
addendum

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

All you need is the Army List August 1914. Over to you!

As for me, I will deal with only one regiment.

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=20962418966&searchurl=bi%3D0%26ds%3D30%26bx%3Doff%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Darmy%2Blist%2Baugust%2B1914%26recentlyadded%3Dall&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title3

Thank you. If you’re going to the trouble to look up the one regiment/battalion I will of course be interested in what you ascertain, as I always am.  As it’s not relevant to the “translator’s uniform” though, it’s probably better if we discuss this by pm, or start another thread, else waters here will digress and get muddy.

Edited 12 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Keith_history_buff]

On 11/02/2020 at 13:27, David Fatscher said:

Just to provide an update, following a comprehensive response from ANOLiR. Below is a summary of what I have received:

From the photo:

·        Confirmation that my grandfather is wearing the interpreters' sphinx, and it is suggested that this is on a fabric whose colour is different from that of his uniform.

·        Uncertainty as to whether it is blue (for British Expeditionary Force) or green (America Expeditionary Force) but he is definitely not wearing a French uniform.

·        He is holding a kepi (French headgear) but ANOLiR not sure whether the buttons bear the sphinx or not

·        He doesn’t seem to have a rank (rank marks were worn at the tip of the sleeves), and at the time the photo was taken, he had not spent time on the frontline, at least not enough to wear the first chevron for 18 months there. Subsequent chevrons were awarded after every 6 months and were worn on the left-hand side shoulder.

 

From his war records (supplied to ANOLiR... this is not uniform specific but I’d be grateful if what follows tallies with this forum's collective wisdom, or anyone can point me to additional sources for clarification):

·        He joined French forces via the Foreign Legion and was attached to artillery battalions: 86th propelled heavy artillery then the 2nd regiment (Artillerie Coloniale) and then the 3rd Artillerie de Marine - but none of these had interpreters attached to them that had gone through the ANOLiR school so hence he is not listed in any capacity as an official interpreter.

·        Also, I’m informed these battalions were not deployed outside of France yet the war record states that my grandfather was sent to Beirut, probably - says ANOLiR - detached to a French or British EF in need of linguistic assistance. Similarly, re: his time in Northern Russia. I’m informed by ANOLiR that this campaign (1918/19) is not very well documented.

 

In conclusion, he was most likely employed on an individual basis, and away from the battalions he was nominally (war record-wise) “appointed to”. Almost, I guess, a freelancer.

 

Does the above make sense???

 

In order to get some answers to your questions, the best thing to do is to post on the French language forum, and to post a link to his matricule militare with your questions. You can use google translate to convert your questions into French. The <<recherches>> subcategory of <<Combattants de la Grande Guerre>> is their equivalent of "Soldiers & their units".

https://forum.pages14-18.com/index.php?