Ship from UK captured by Germans en route to South America in 1914 - name/details please?

[tbirduk]

On 12/10/2018 at 11:37, charlie2 said:

The CWGC doesn‘t record any deaths from the the ships sunk by the SMS Kronprinz Wilhelm.

IWGC did not record Civilian or merchant seaman deaths in the Great War or indeed WW2 until Churchill's intervention in October 1940.
 Fabian Ware had written a rather chilling letter to to Churchill pointing out there could well be more civilian than Forces deaths in 'the present war' as the Luftwaffe were using French airfields, and that Civilian deaths 'should be counted an equal sacrifice' 

Correction
Apologies, I had forgotten that in 1921 the IWGC decided to accept 'Members of the Mercantile Marine' who died through Enemy Action, also  YMCA and Red Cross who had been 'employed with the armed forces' as being 'members of the Naval and Military Forces of the Crown' and built the Tower Hill monument in 1928 for the Seamen

Edited 13 October , 2018 by tbirduk

[charlie2]

40 minutes ago, tbirduk said:

IWGC did not record Civilian or merchant seaman deaths in the Great War or indeed WW2 until Churchill's intervention in October 1940.
 Fabian Ware had written a rather chilling letter to to Churchill pointing out there could well be more civilian than Forces deaths in 'the present war' as the Luftwaffe were using French airfields, and that Civilian deaths 'should be counted an equal sacrifice' 

 

The CWGC records 324 MN Sailors for 1914 alone.

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?servedIn=Merchant%2Bnavy&dateFrom=04-08-1914&dateTo=31-12-1914

[Antonia]

20 hours ago, seaJane said:

I have looked on International Red Cross POW records and cannot find the lady under any conceivable spelling variant of her name.

 

I hate to ask, but it is definitely the right name (he has not given her married name by accident?) and spelling?

 Hi seaJane, thank you so much for checking those records, that's very much appreciated. Ivy Catley is definitely the correct name and spelling. I've been doing a lot of family history research for this gentleman on Ancestry, so I am certain of her name, date and place of birth, and the gentleman is sure that the sinking occurred in 1914. It must have been early in the year, before it seemed too dangerous to travel.

[Antonia]

14 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

As a civillian was she transported to a South American country and released so no POW record generated?

From where did Essequibo's return voyage originate? Might that give a clue which could be cross-referenced with the movements of the raiders?

Hi David! Thank you so much for looking into this for me, I really appreciate it! The only details I have of the return voyage are as follows (obviously disregard the error in the transcription of Ivy's name):

 

Name:	Ivy Pattie Catle Y
Arrival Age:	23
Birth Date:	abt 1892
Port of Departure:	Buenos Aires, Argentina
Arrival date:	28 Jun 1915
Port of Arrival:	Liverpool, England
Ports of Voyage:	Montevideo; Santos; Rio de Janeiro; Bahia; Pernambuco; Lisbon
Ship Name:	Essequibo
Shipping line:	Royal Mail Steam Packet Company
Official Number:	136344

[seaJane]

1 minute ago, Antonia said:

the gentleman is sure that the sinking occurred in 1914.

Given that war didn't break out until August 1914, that leaves 5 months to choose from of which post-October may have been considered not best for travelling.

 

I have checked Catley in the Times Digital Archive as well but there is no record.

[Antonia]

At this point I just really want to thank everyone who has jumped in and got involved here - I know this gentleman will be really touched at how many of you are trying so hard to help track down this information. I know it's a needle in a haystack, but I appreciate all your efforts tremendously.

[Antonia]

2 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Given that war didn't break out until August 1914, that leaves 5 months to choose from of which post-October may have been considered not best for travelling.

 

I have checked Catley in the Times Digital Archive as well but there is no record.

lol I know it doesn't narrow it down too much, does it! Thank you for checking the TDA, too!

[Antonia]

14 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

As a civillian was she transported to a South American country and released so no POW record generated?

From where did Essequibo's return voyage originate? Might that give a clue which could be cross-referenced with the movements of the raiders?

The gentleman says that his mother was 'a prisoner of the Germans', and that they treated the prisoners well. I will ask him whether the passengers were only considered POWs for the duration of the time it took to transport them to land, or whether they were actually kept in an internment camp or suchlike after they got to South America. What is a bit mysterious is the fact that if they had been kept prisoner once they reached land, obviously they were released within a year, as Ivy returned to England in the spring of 1915.

[johnboy]

Just a thought .I wonder if the outbound ship was also Royal Mail and they had to repatriate the passengers? 

[seaJane]

Oddly enough there is still a firm called Catley, dealing in industrial hardware, in Argentina today ... ??

https://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/catley-san-justo

http://www.catley.com.ar/

 

[Antonia]

3 minutes ago, johnboy said:

Just a thought .I wonder if the outbound ship was also Royal Mail and they had to repatriate the passengers? 

Could very well have been!

[Antonia]

3 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Oddly enough there is still a firm called Catley, dealing in industrial hardware, in Argentina today ... ??

https://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/catley-san-justo

http://www.catley.com.ar/

 

There's a coincidence! But Catley was her maiden name, and she didn't get married till 1928. I know that doesn't preclude the possibility of having any offspring in South America, but it's unlikely.

[seaJane]

I just wondered if, for example, there were already Catley cousins in Argentina which was why Ivy and Constance/Daisy were going in that direction.

[seaJane]

If anyone has Spanish good enough to contact the Argentinian National Archives ... !

http://www.agnargentina.gob.ar/contacto.html

 

[johnboy]

If they were going to visit / stay with relatives why return?

[Antonia]

1 minute ago, seaJane said:

I just wondered if, for example, there were already Catley cousins in Argentina which was why Ivy and Constance/Daisy were going in that direction.

Ahhh. That's not impossible, certainly. I will try investigate that. I only have a UK access subscription to Ancestry at the moment, but I will see if I can find any trails of breadcrumbs leading abroad. Thanks for that - good thought! It seems to me a heck of a long way to go for the sake of your health - especially at that time.

[Antonia]

1 minute ago, johnboy said:

If they were going to visit / stay with relatives why return?

I'd imagine the sinking of the ship gave Ivy a good old fright and home was looking pretty good after that! The gentleman said that she did learn to speak Spanish, so she was there long enough to do that, presumably.

4 minutes ago, seaJane said:

If anyone has Spanish good enough to contact the Argentinian National Archives ... !

http://www.agnargentina.gob.ar/contacto.html

 

I'm afraid I don't! Hard to tell if they've digitised the archives or are just providing indexes....

[seaJane]

I think it's just indexes but my Spanish isn't good enough - if my little brother deigns to respond to an e-mail, I'll ask him!

[Antonia]

2 minutes ago, seaJane said:

I think it's just indexes but my Spanish isn't good enough - if my little brother deigns to respond to an e-mail, I'll ask him!

lol! Thank you! <3

[johnboy]

Would the British Consul or officals have beeninvolved? Accomodation .money?

[seaJane]

*ping* remembers has friend working in Foreign and Commonwealth Archives. Will e-mail her pronto.

 

sJ

[MerchantOldSalt]

I'm sure you've noticed that in the 1911 Census, Ivy is described as a "laundry worker" and Daisy as a "laundry proprietress (?) employee".  The ESSEQUIBO's passenger list with Ivy homeward bound has her listed underneath the family of Alfred Herbert Hale "Laundry Manager", now that has got to be more than a coincidence?  Of what use that is I know not at present, but interesting.

In 1911 the Hale's lived in Acton Vale and Ivy in Peckham so unlikely they knew each other then.  I cannot, as yet, find the Hales in any outward bound passenger list, was hoping maybe they travelled together out as well as home, and what happened to sister Daisy Alice, did she stay in Argentina? Also where does the name Constance come from as the 1911 Census makes no mention of that name?

Tony

[johnboy]

Tony. can you give a link to the passenger list?

[DavidOwen]

11 hours ago, seaJane said:

If anyone has Spanish good enough to contact the Argentinian National Archives ... !

http://www.agnargentina.gob.ar/contacto.html

 

I don't think I know more than a couple of words but Google Translate found this in the document archives - not sure if it will have the arrivals or just departures (see highlighted text)

[MerchantOldSalt]

1 hour ago, johnboy said:

 

Tony. can you give a link to the passenger list?

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1518

Sorry that didn't work, just go into Ancestry incoming pax lists put in Alfred H Hale Essequibo Royal Mail Line and 1915 date of travel and it will come up.

T

Edited 13 October , 2018 by MerchantOldSalt