P.14 in Great War?

[Steve1871]

I know about P14 and P17, but with a massive amount of photos out there, I do not remember ever seeing photos of British troops in trenches with the P14 or American troops like wise, just few pics of American troops state side.

Were either actually used in the Great War??Anybody know? Pics?

Thanks Gents

[593jones]

As far as I am aware, the P.14 was not used on the Western Front except in limited numbers as a sniper's rifle, however I haven't seen any photos to confirm this.  The Model 1917 was used by US troops in France, including, allegedly, Sergeant Alvin York (although he apparently preferred the Model 1903 Springfield).  I did find a picture on the Warfare History Network site: https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/the-u-s-rifle-model-1917/

 

The picture, the fourth down, is captioned 'Armed with Enfields, American doughboys man an abandoned German position in the Meuse Valley north of Verdun.'  The soldiers pictured are clearly equipped with Model 1917 rifles.

[4thGordons]

There are a lot of pictures of US troops with M1917s. Not hard to find at all. Many will argue (based on production figures) that the M1917 armed more of the AEF than the M1903 Springfield (although this is debated - what cannot be debated is the production figures -- M1903s in stock in 1917=@600,000, in stock in 1918=@900,000 whereas M1917s went from 0-@2,300,000 - cf Ayres, "Statistical Abstract of the War With Germany").

I just happened to watch this clip this morning. At @8-10 seconds it shows a man fixing a bayonet onto an M1917.

 

A picture of a P14 in use, in France is another story entirely. It is a holy grail of mine! The generally received wisdom is that very very few Pattern 1914s actually made it to France. Some were used in training in the UK (I have some pics) but a huge number went straight into storage because by the time the production/delivery came through Sht LE production had caught up. The rifles that did make it to France (if any) were probably "Fine" sighted (marksman) and possible (very late) "Telescopically" sighted rifles. It seems likely that there may have been field trials of the rifles but I have never been able to confirm this and have never seen a picture of a P14 in use in France.

 

Chris

[Richard2]

On 09/10/2018 at 14:25, 593jones said:

 

As far as I am aware, the P.14 was not used on the Western Front except in limited numbers 

 

Also, 4thGordons stated that he wanted to find a photo of a P14 “in France”.  Were P14s used in other theaters (East Africa, Mesopotamia, etc.)?  I have read of various obsolete rifles in non-standard calibers being used by non-European troops in remote theaters, and wonder if the P14 was used too.  

[4thGordons]

4 hours ago, Richard2 said:

Also, 4thGordons stated that he wanted to find a photo of a P14 “in France”.  Were P14s used in other theaters (East Africa, Mesopotamia, etc.)?  I have read of various obsolete rifles in non-standard calibers being used by non-European troops in remote theaters, and wonder if the P14 was used too.  

Not to my knowledge. I have never seen any photographic or documentary evidence suggesting this. I think where obsolete or non standard arms were used in the more far flung theatres  it was because they were already there rather than because they were shipped there (although supply of "native" forces may be a different matter) As far as the British were concerned at least the P14 was neither obsolete nor non standard calibre of course.

 

Having said this,  a large number of rifles were shipped direct to India from the factories (probably almost all from the Remington factory) and these were supplemented by additional supplies from the UK inter war - I suppose it is possible that they were used on the NW frontier in the period after the war but I have never seen any evidence of this.

In the inter-war period significant number were supplied to the Baltic states also and there is a pretty good photographic record of these.

Chris

[Steve1871]

Thanks for your insight tree 4G,

For a history buff or looking for the odd or rare things ( my treasure hunts) it is always interesting reading, even better with pics, the Colonial fighting in Africa ith British and German, both using local/ tribal troops as well as the Asian / pacific colonies, it is fascinating to think how both old obsolete and modern guns were in use in same war, M71 Mauser, 

M/H 303 conv, , maybe some old Metfords, I still wonder if any battles were actually fought that way. Germany I think had revert to M71 when their supply ship, 8mm ammo was sunk, transferring those back to their native troops, still not clear on this aspect. Also never read if any action was had on the small German pacific colonies , Somoa, and others. Always great to read you guy's posts

[Chasemuseum]

57 minutes ago, Steve1871 said:

Thanks for your insight tree 4G,

For a history buff or looking for the odd or rare things ( my treasure hunts) it is always interesting reading, even better with pics, the Colonial fighting in Africa ith British and German, both using local/ tribal troops as well as the Asian / pacific colonies, it is fascinating to think how both old obsolete and modern guns were in use in same war, M71 Mauser, 

M/H 303 conv, , maybe some old Metfords, I still wonder if any battles were actually fought that way. Germany I think had revert to M71 when their supply ship, 8mm ammo was sunk, transferring those back to their native troops, still not clear on this aspect. Also never read if any action was had on the small German pacific colonies , Somoa, and others. Always great to read you guy's posts

 

German East Africa, the Askari were primarily armed with m71 and m71/84 11mm black powder rifles at the beginning of the war. As the war progressed these were progressively replaced with captured British SMLE .303 rifles and after the German columns were driven out of the German colony, into Portuguese territory they continued to replace the remaining m71s with captured Portuguese M1904 6.5mm Veguiro-Mausers. At the final East Africa armistice, some Askari were still using 11mm rifles. The combat issue with 11mm Mauser is that this is a black powder cartridge, when fired from cover, the black powder gives a cloud of whitish smoke which betrays the soldier's position. Hence in bush warfare troops using smokeless powder rifles have a great advantage over those using black powder. There is an excellent book on this campaign  "Battle for the Bundu, the first world war in East Africa" by Charles Miller, ISBN 0 356 041915 9.

 

In the Pacific (German New Guinea, Bougainville Island (now part of PNG), German Solomon Islands, Samoa, Nauru, Marshall Is, Mariana Is, & Caroline Is), there was no combat in most of the colonies. Where they existed, the European German reservists were typically armed with 7.92mm mauser Gew98 rifles and the native police with 11mm m71 rifles, although in New Guinea, some native police appear to have also had 8mm rifles. There was some very minor combat near Rabaul, in German New Guinea. Rabaul was the capital of the colony, for a number of reasons in particular the spectacular harbour, it is located on the island of New Britain which the Germans called New Pomerania.  The Australian expeditionary force (AN&MEF) landed to the east of Rabaul at the small village of Kokopo to seize the wireless station, and then marched through to Rabaul. The troops were ambushed by native police during that march with 2 or 3 fatal casualties, but there was no further combat before taking the surrender of the German Governor at Rabaul. A German officer and some native troops did escape to the mainland island, and remain active across the colony for the remainder of the war but this was more of an "escape and evasion" exercise rather than any combat.

 

Similarly the German government also supplied 11mm rifles to the rebels in Ireland, although the major shipment just before the Easter Rising was seized by the British.

 

Regards British Dominion and Colonial troops, a wide variety of second and third grade rifles saw service in numerous theatres, although the SMLE No1 Mk3 was always the most common rifle for actual combat use.

Cheers

Ross

 

[Steve1871]

Thanks CHASEMUSEUM, !

I am driving now but am sure to like your responce when I stop for the night, A trucker, Lorry driver in U.S.

[Richard2]

Thank you for the reply 4G, and thanks to all who provided information.  I found this forum a few days ago, and I am fascinated by the wealth of knowledge available here.  

[Steve1871]

Thanks again Ross, will try find a copy of that book😄

[trajan]

3 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

 

German East Africa, the Askari were primarily armed with m71 and m71/84 11mm black powder rifles at the beginning of the war....

 

Small pedantic point - I understood it to be Jaegerbusche 71 rather than Gew.71  Very slight differences, I know! Basically, I understand that the Jaegerbusche were slightly shorter with a different style trigger guard and a finger spur, with the rear sling swivel is located behind the trigger guard. Of course, do please correct me if wrong!

 

Note also that some Gew.98 did get to the Schutzen fuer Deutschmad Ost-Afrika along with their kS bayonets

[Chasemuseum]

Hi Trajan,

you are correct, the m71Jägerbüsche was the primary rifle of the German East Afrika Askari troops. This is about 5cm shorter than the standard infantry model. At the outbreak of hostilities there were 14 Askari field companies of which 5 had been rearmed with Gew98 rifles. A study of rifles in colonial service is available at:

   http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/

 

Cheers

Ross

[trajan]

Thanks Ross!

 

I knew about the J.busche because of the bayonets, likewise the Gew.98. I have used that site before and should have checked there as well...

 

Best wishes,

 

Julian