Why 1919 on War Memorials?

[OpsMajor]

Although the Armistice was 11:11:18 many War Memorials show the dates 1914-1919. Is this because British/Commonwealth troops continued to fight and die in Russia and the Middle East?

Thanks

Mike

[GraemeClarke]

The official, or diplomatic, end of World War I came later at the Treaty of Versailles, June 28, 1919.

 

The CWGC considers the war years  to be

 

World War I   4 August 1914 to 31 August 1921

 

World War II   3 September 1939 to 31 December 1947

 

Regards,

 

Graeme

[tootrock]

11 November 1918 was an Armistice, which is temporary cessation of hostilities.

 

Martin

[OpsMajor]

Thanks. Did I read somewhere that the Armistice had to be re-signed after each 30 days until the T of V?

Can anyone answer my first point about continuing action/deaths please?

[Medaler]

11 minutes ago, OpsMajor said:

Thanks. Did I read somewhere that the Armistice had to be re-signed after each 30 days until the T of V?

Can anyone answer my first point about continuing action/deaths please?

 

Already answered by Greame surely?

 

The CWGC considers the war years  to be

 

World War I   4 August 1914 to 31 August 1921

 

The 1919 date is about the formal end of the war, nothing to do with continuing deaths. The CWGC 1921 date takes in the "unfinished business", though men continued to die "before their time" due to their wartime service for many years afterwards.

 

Mike

[OpsMajor]

Thanks all.

My apologies, my question was put rather clumsily!

What I wanted to know was whether British/Commonwealth troops continued to fight in other areas away from the Western Front after 11:11:18; e.g. Russia, Middle East, Africa?

Mike

[RaySearching]

Yes

[Neil Mackenzie]

CWGC lists an amazing (to me) 59,000 men who died between 1 January 1919 to 31 August 1921. Of these the vast majority died at home (UK, India, Canada, Australia etc) presumably of illness or wounds or in France, Belgium and Germany (again as you might expect).

 

But some 7,000 died in in Iraq, over 2,000 in Egypt, over 1,100 in Iran plus almost 600 in Greece and 500 in Turkey. Just under 400 men are commemorated in what is now the Russian Federation.

 

I have medals to William (Bill) Archie John Jeremy who served in the RFC/RAF during the war before becoming a Wireless Operator in the Royal Signals and spending 3 years in Turkey between 1920 and 1923.

 

Neil

 

 

 

 

 

[OpsMajor]

Many thanks, Neil! That's the information I was looking for!

Krs

Mike

[MaureenE]

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Mesopotamia Campaign includes some military information about the period after 1918.

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Mesopotamia_Campaign

 

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Norperforce contains  military information about the region around Turkey/South Russia

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Norperforce

 

For North Russia, and South Russia also,  see

Cheers

Maureen

[OpsMajor]

Thanks Maureen

Mike

[OpsMajor]

...and now I have had time to read your links, an even bigger thank you Maureen!

Mike

[tbirduk]

The German forces in South East Africa didn't hear about the cessation of Hostilities until 13 November when the Empire forces showed them a Telegram under a white flag .
The other aspect is that the Great War was fought on many fronts against many enemies, the Armistice of 11/11/18 was with the German Forces, the Austro-Hungarian Armistice was already signed (4 November) but The revolution that followed meant that parts of that Empire considered themselves still  at war

 

Legally The US Declared peace  2 July 1921

The UK was still legally at war until the following dates

• Germany on 10 January 1920.
• Austria on 16 July 1920.
• Bulgaria on 9 August 1920.
• Hungary on 26 July 1921.
• Turkey on 6 August 1924.

One place were men were still dying in action after 11/11/18 was Russia, the Empire withdrew from the war in 1917 but Allied forces were still actively fighting the Bolsheviks in both the Baltic and around Archangel.

HM Submarine L-55 was lost with all hands in June 1919 and The Bolshevik Navy claimed the Kill.

 

My Grandfather (above) was serving as Electrical Artificer aboard the Submarine Depot Ship HMS Lucia in the Baltic after having watched the Surrender of the German Fleet at Scapa Flow and always complained no-one remembered the Actions of the RN 1919-1920

 

Bolshevik prisoners captured in 1919 aboard HMS Lucia

A Woking man serving in the DLI died in Archangel in 1919 but this was from a heart attack whilst Guarding the dock facilities  

   

Edited 15 October , 2018 by tbirduk

[593jones]

Out of interest, how would troops killed in Ireland be recorded for this period?  I am assuming Ireland was not regarded as a theatre of war, but soldiers were certainly killed in action.

[tbirduk]

4 hours ago, 593jones said:

Out of interest, how would troops killed in Ireland be recorded for this period?  I am assuming Ireland was not regarded as a theatre of war, but soldiers were certainly killed in action.

If you look  at the CWGC site for Cemetery = GRANGEGORMAN MILITARY CEMETERY for the period 24 April 1916 to 1 May 1916 you will see 66 burials, the rest of the Troops killed were exhumed and brought back to the mainland at the Families Request.

The soldiers Effects Register shows that the men were identified as Killed in Action and War Gratuities were paid.
 The Army and the IWGC took the view that the troops were killed whilst serving during the Great War and were killed in action against an enemy of the Crown (this view was enabled by the declaration of Martial Law)

 

Edited 14 October , 2018 by tbirduk

[Wexflyer]

7 hours ago, tbirduk said:

....the rest of the Troops killed were exhumed and brought back to the mainland at the Families Request.

 

A minor but pertinent point: The mainland is Europe. I doubt they were brought there.

[OpsMajor]

Many thanks for your post at 13 Pete

Mike

[593jones]

13 hours ago, tbirduk said:

If you look  at the CWGC site for Cemetery = GRANGEGORMAN MILITARY CEMETERY for the period 24 April 1916 to 1 May 1916 you will see 66 burials, the rest of the Troops killed were exhumed and brought back to the mainland at the Families Request.

The soldiers Effects Register shows that the men were identified as Killed in Action and War Gratuities were paid.
 The Army and the IWGC took the view that the troops were killed whilst serving during the Great War and were killed in action against an enemy of the Crown (this view was enabled by the declaration of Martial Law)

 

 

 

Thank you, tbirduk, that does clear it up for me.

[tbirduk]

6 hours ago, Wexflyer said:

 

A minor but pertinent point: The mainland is Europe. I doubt they were brought there.

Semantics!
Personally I refer to Europe as "The Continent" not "The Mainland".
In my view the island of Hibernia is a subsidiary of the mainland Britannia.
The Great God Wikipedia  agrees mine is a valid concept 
the British mainland, as opposed to Northern Ireland and the many smaller islands that make up the UK. 

In 1916 the term "Northern Ireland" above would have read "Ireland" 

[Wexflyer]

14 hours ago, tbirduk said:

Semantics!
Personally I refer to Europe as "The Continent" not "The Mainland".
In my view the island of Hibernia is a subsidiary of the mainland Britannia.
The Great God Wikipedia  agrees mine is a valid concept 
the British mainland, as opposed to Northern Ireland and the many smaller islands that make up the UK. 

In 1916 the term "Northern Ireland" above would have read "Ireland" 

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but Wikipedia is a false God.

 

Previously addressed by Corisande and others in this topic

 

Edited 16 October , 2018 by Wexflyer

[tbirduk]

Disappointed?
Afraid not, I always find it amusing when people from other Countries (usually Americans or Scotsmen) tell me how to use the English Language by teaching me their Dialects.
 
So, I'm wrong
Collins Dictionary of the English Language is wrong
The Concise Oxford Dictionary is wrong
Wikipedia is wrong
Even Dictionary.com is wrong
 

I speak and write English as it is defined in Dictionaries of the English Language, but thanks for trying to educate me into how Irish English is so different. 

[keithmroberts]

Can we have no more point scoring please. The term "mainland" can be applied as referring to either the mainland of the UK, or to mainland Europe. Context is everything. We have more interesting points for discussion.

 

Keith Roberts

 

 

 

 

[Dever Mayfly]

A useful book with the full list of Commonwealth soldiers killed in Russia is Ray Brough's "White Russian Awards to British and Commonwealth Servicemen During The Allied Intervention In Russia 1918-1920: With A Roll Of Honour", published by Tom Donovan in 1991.

 

The First World War medals (Mutt and Jeff) were handed out to soldiers who served in Siberia and South Russia until the end of 1920.  No honours were granted by the Secretary of State for India for the Third Afghan War (6 May to 3 Jun 1919) because "nothing was gained".  Not sure about the other anti-Empire rebellions and insurgencies in Egypt, India, etc. But I know that some memorials in England include those who died from their wounds as late as 1925.

 

 

[OpsMajor]

Thanks Dever Mayfly - I'll have a look for that book

Mike