Robinson78580 Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 Hi I am sorry I can see this conversation is very old however it popped up when I was trying to track down information about an ancestor of mine - Robert Thomas Bramwell Regiment 240558 with the 6th Battalion Notts and Derby. I am wondering whether anyone has any photographs or diary references/books I could try and locate. I have one photo of a man I believe to possibly be wearing the correct uniform which now I believe could be possibly Robert. I have attached said photo. Apologies however the image is a pocket photo. Any information that anyone has though would be very appreciated. Sorry I also have a relative called Charles Fearn who was in the Notts and Derbyshire batallion T4/246126 so again the image could be of him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 (edited) Looks to me like a pre-ww1 picture - uniforms are my (very) weak point but it has the feel of a volunteer era uniform. Quartermaster Serjeant ? He seems to have a proficiency star on his lower right arm. Craig Edited 27 September , 2018 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 27 September , 2018 Admin Share Posted 27 September , 2018 Hello Victoria I have moved this to the Uniforms board where those more likely to know spend their time. Glen GWF Admin Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinson78580 Posted 27 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2018 thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 The cross belt plate looks to have a Victorian crown, not that that wouldn't have been worn later. have you got date of birth for your relatives ? Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinson78580 Posted 27 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2018 yes Robert Thomas Bramwell born 21/10/1888 regiment 240558 previous unit 2390 1/6th Bn Notts and Derby and Charles Fearn born 1895 ASC T/204 transport and T4/246126 Of course the photograph could be another ancestor undiscovered! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 It is possible that neither of these two is old enough. Could be a generation back or a much older brother or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinson78580 Posted 27 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2018 this was robert bramwell prior to WW1 however again like you say it could be a father or uncle. I just though facial similarities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinson78580 Posted 27 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2018 the busby he is holding might imply 1880s ? it's so frustrating as I just want to know who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 2 hours ago, victoria said: T4/246126 ...would have been an Army Service Corps number for a driver in a Horse Transport company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 (edited) The star above his rank badge is an PROFICIENCY star (see erratum below) as used by the Volunteer Force and, for a time the Territorial Force, it marks that the Sergeant concerned has passed tests of competency in various subjects and skills. Given his appearance he is likely to be from a Volunteer Battalion (VB) of the Notts and Derby Regiment (i.e. pre-1908) that continued to wear a Rifles pattern of dress despite the demise of the Volunteer Force, a number of battalions (but not all) opted to do that. You can peruse an excellent illustrated history at this link: https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/26th-battalion/ Edited 27 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 The efficiency star continues today with the cadet force. Away from my books(rather nice pub in Weymouth) but what is the lower star? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 20 minutes ago, Scalyback said: The efficiency star continues today with the cadet force. Away from my books(rather nice pub in Weymouth) but what is the lower star? As I understood it that was proficiency star, a 5 pointed star worn on the lower arm (which is why I was confused as to the star above the chevrons)- Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: As I understood it that was proficiency star, a 5 pointed star worn on the lower arm (which is why I was confused as to the star above the chevrons)- Craig Yes, you are right Craig, apologies. Ironically I had just realised my mistake and logged back in to correct it, but you beat me to it. I will correct the post. Edited 27 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes, you are right Craig, apologies. Ironically I had just realised my mistake and logged back in to correct it, but you beat me to it. I will correct the post. Nee worries - uniforms are my weak point (amongst other weak points) so I thought I was probably missing something obvious ! Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scalyback said: The efficiency star continues today with the cadet force. Away from my books(rather nice pub in Weymouth) but what is the lower star? The lower star is the ‘efficiency’ star (see erratum above), although it seems to be a late version with rather shallow points and looks like the ‘judging distance’ skill-at-arms star used by regulars. He has something else on his left cuff that I cannot make out, but it’s probably a VF Musketry badge of a single rifle placed horizontally with star/crown placed centrally above. Edited 27 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 26 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: Nee worries - uniforms are my weak point (amongst other weak points) so I thought I was probably missing something obvious ! Craig ☺️ Proficiency, efficiency, deficiency...the army had/has a lot of iciencies, but I should not confuse matters, I’ve written about them enough times here after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 27 September , 2018 Admin Share Posted 27 September , 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: ...would have been an Army Service Corps number for a driver in a Horse Transport company. For clarification, Charles Fearn was a driver in the Notts and Derby Mounted Brigade, a Territorial Force Unit. The Transport and Supply Column was the ASC element of the Brigade. The Brigade HQ was at Nottingham while the Transport headquarters were at Chesterfield, with Drill Stations at Chatsworth and Bolsover. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/the-territorial-force/the-territorial-force-mounted-brigades/ His original number was T/204, he was renumbered, as were all the men in his unit. on transfer to the Regular ASC on 1/9/1916. He apparently remained a 'Driver' (equivalent to private) throughout the war therefore not him in the photo. Out of interest the Brigade was initially in the 1st Mounted Division, moving to 2nd Mounted Division in September 1914, Driver Fearn landed in Egypt with the main body of the Division on the 27th April 1915. See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/2nd-mounted-division/ Ken Edited 27 September , 2018 by kenf48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 27 September , 2018 Admin Share Posted 27 September , 2018 6 hours ago, victoria said: the busby he is holding might imply 1880s ? it's so frustrating as I just want to know who he is. Possibly the busby puts him in the South Nottinghamshire Hussars (no nearer an identification though) see photo on this blog https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/tag/south-nottinghamshire-hussars/ Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 Isn't the busby a Rifle Corps style, as is the cross belt plate. Thus a member of a Rifles Volunteer unit ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinson78580 Posted 27 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2018 thank you all for your responses. Whilst everyone has been responding I have been trawling through all your links - all very interesting, fascinating to see the photographs. I was just reading passages from the book - 16th Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters, Chatsworth Rifles by Roy Francis Truscott published 1928. In it it mentions Sergeant Bramwell arriving back along with Liet Colonel C Herbert Stepney, Major H R Stevens and Captains Cholerton, Lord and Wright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, charlie962 said: Isn't the busby a Rifle Corps style, as is the cross belt plate. Thus a member of a Rifles Volunteer unit ? Charlie in the decade after July 1881 and the Childer’s reforms of that year, the Volunteer Force units almost all became ‘Volunteer Battalions’ of the local regular regiment within whose recruiting area their drill hall lay. Some, but not all of these battalions fought to retain their Rifles dress and accoutrements (and sometimes even a special title), even though they were now aligned with a standard line regiment. Others wholly immersed themselves in their new identity and adopted scarlet dress, pragmatically abandoning their Rifles heritage. Edited 28 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, kenf48 said: Possibly the busby puts him in the South Nottinghamshire Hussars (no nearer an identification though) see photo on this blog https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/tag/south-nottinghamshire-hussars/ Ken The cross belt and style of busby places him categorically as a Rifle Volunteer, Ken. He is probably of the 7th ‘Robin Hood’ battalion, see here: https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/1902-1907-2/formation-of-the-volunteer-battalions-of-the-sherwood-foresters-1887/ Edited 27 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 September , 2018 Share Posted 27 September , 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 28 September , 2018 Share Posted 28 September , 2018 The cross belt plate in the OP's photo seems a particularly good example and is remarkably similar to this which is described as 1st Notts Rifle Vols Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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