Who was this young Scottish piper 1914 ?

[Gunga Din]

Here are the Pipers re-sorted by Army Number with the oldest at the top. Note that the Black Watch started a new Army Number series in 1904, so Wann was one of the last on the old series and Duthie one of the first on the new series. This ties in nicely with Wann's age; 34 in 1915  and implicitly 22-23 when enlisted in 1904.

 

The bad news is that 23 of the named Pipers in the book appear to have disembarked with the 2nd Bn at Marseille on 12th Oct 1914. A haystack four times larger that one might expect. 

 

Note three 2nd Battalion Pipers started the war by disembarking with the 1st Battalion on 13th Aug 1914. I think it highly unlikely they would have been posted to 2nd Bn before they set off from Marseille. Highlighted in red.

Those at the bottom appear on the 1914-15 Star roll (2) or only on the BWM roll (7) suggesting they did not disembark in 1914 (or 1915 for that matter). These are also highlighted in red. One I cant find any records. 

 

The 'youngest' would likely be the two who enlisted in 1911; Jordan and Pratt DCM (who was a Pte when he disembarked). Personally I would focus on Bradley, Galloway, Pratt DCM and Jordan as prime suspects (assuming he is of course Black Watch) and assuming the book had not missed anyone. Incidentally the army Numbers of Dunn was also incorrect (shown corrected below) so the book made 2 errors at least across 37 individuals. Note also some of the forenames are different in other official records, which adds to the error ratio. Pratt DCM should be the easiest to research. I cant find any Service Records in FMP for any of these men which is unusual...possibly user error....

 

All the men who were discharged were no longer physically fit, so there might be some SWB records for these Pipers. Other than that I would suggest searching the Scottish Newspapers for surname and regiment matches. Good luck with your quest. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Gunga Din.

 

Bn	Enlisted	No.	Rank	Forename	Surname	Disembark	Fate	Date	Age	Roll
2nd Bn	1898	6830	Sgt Piper	John	Keith DCM	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1898	7184	Pte	Donald	McMaster	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1901	8358	Cpl	Angus	McLeod	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1903	9476	Piper	Joseph	Gordon	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1904	9908	Piper	James McLeish	Wann	12/10/1914	DOW	13/03/1915	Aged 34	1914 Star
2nd Bn	1904	65	Piper	John	Duthie	12/10/1914	Disch	10/04/1915		1914 Star
1st Bn	1905	288	Pte	William	Thompson	13/08/1914				1914 Star
1st Bn	1905	336	Pte	David	Kidd	13/08/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1905	365	L/Cpl	Robert	Johnstone	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1906	467	Pte	John	Kidd	12/10/1914	Disch	13/07/1916		1914 Star
1st Bn	1906	487	Pte	James	Angus	13/08/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1906	699	Pte	David	Armit	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1906	736	Pte	David Smith	Simpson	12/10/1914	KIA	25/09/1915	No age given	1914 Star
2nd Bn	1906	779	Pte	Andrew	Hadden	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1907	941	Pte	Peter	McNee DCM	12/10/1914	DOW	23/01/1916	No age given	1914 Star
2nd Bn	1907	1165	Piper	Peter	Chrichton	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1907	1171	Pte	Thomas	Tallon	12/10/1914				1914 Star
1st Bn	1908	1314	Pte	R	Smith	13/08/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1908	1350	Pte	Thomas R	Logan	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1908	1358	Pte	David F	Player	12/10/1914	KIA	25/09/1915	Aged 24	1914 Star
2nd Bn	1908	1449	Pte	John Grant	Davis	12/10/1914	KIA	25/09/1915	No age given	1914 Star
2nd Bn	1908	1478	Pte	Thomas	Phinn	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1909	1539	Pte	Alexander	McDonald	12/10/1914	Disch	15/12/1916		1914 Star
2nd Bn	1910	1838	Pte	William	Bradley	12/10/1914	Disch	04/04/1915		1914 Star
2nd Bn	1910	1871	Pte	James	Galloway	12/10/1914	KIA	08/10/1915	No age given	1914 Star
2nd Bn	1911	1919	Pte	Alexander	Pratt DCM	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn	1911	1998	Pte	John	Jordan	12/10/1914				1914 Star
2nd Bn		S/4372	Pte	William	Robertson	14/07/1915	Class Z	31/03/1919		1914-15 Star
2nd Bn		S/8875	Pte	Alexander	Thomson	30/09/1915	Class Z			1914-15 Star
2nd Bn		S/17486	Pte	Neil	Young	No dates				BWM
2nd Bn		3 8973	Pte	John (James)	Brown	No dates				BWM
2nd Bn		S/8570	Pte	David	Storrar	No dates				BWM
2nd Bn		S/17639	Pte	David (Duncan)	Drummond	No dates				BWM
2nd Bn		S/17691	Pte	James (William)	Greig	No dates				BWM
2nd Bn		S/19765	Pte	James McM	Dunn	No dates				BWM
2nd Bn		S/18525	Pte	David	Stark	No dates				BWM
?		3 3422	Pte	John	Benzie	No dates				No records

Edited 19 September , 2018 by Gunga Din

[gordon92]

20 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Are you happy with my Black watch suggestion?

I concur completely, Steven, 2nd Battalion Black Watch.  Your observation about the solid glegarries worn by the piper's companions is spot on eliminating the 1st Seaforth.  Further, the artist seems to show hose flashes with the leading edges aligned the midline of the shin, and this further reinforces the Black Watch identification.

[Steven Broomfield]

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, Gunga Din said:

I hope this helps.

Wow. Great work. I shall start digging. I may be a little while.

 

Thanks also for the suggestion and confirmation on Black Watch v Seaforths.

Charlie

 

Edit- of course a big problem is that a lot of Scottish records are hidden from the English.

Edited 19 September , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

What was the view on earlist age for a boy soldier enlistment please ?

[charlie962]

An enormous number of hits on FindmyPast Newaspapers (to which I don't currently subscribe) so this may have to wait. I am accumulating reasons to subscribe.

 

eg Bradley

[charlie962]

These are the 1911 Census 2ndBn Pipers and Drummers. Perhaps I should also check 1st Bn.

                 

[charlie962]

1911 Census (Ireland) for 1st Bn is very difficult to read. I suspect transcript is full of errors.

Charlie

[Heid the Ba]

11 hours ago, charlie962 said:

 

Apologies if you know this but Methil was in a mining area which had (and still has) a lot of economic conscription.  It's also deep in the Black Watch recruiting area and co-incidentally about two miles from Earl Haig's family home at Windygates.

[Gunga Din]

12 hours ago, charlie962 said:

These are the 1911 Census 2nd Bn Pipers and Drummers. Perhaps I should also check 1st Bn.

 

You will need to cast your Census net wider. 23 men on the 1914 Star roll who disembarked on 12th Oct 1914 at Marseille (who would also have passed through Limoges a week later) ended up as pipers with the 2nd Battalion at some stage.

 

Given establishment was for 6 pipers, this means another 17 were (at the time) mere private soldiers who subsequently became pipers. Clearly there was a lot of hidden talent. Between the 1911 Census and Oct 1914 the Black Watch would have turned over around 250 men if the trooping data is any indication, meaning there is probably only a one in four chance of the men on the pipers' list also appearing on the 1911 Census. It will at least reduce the number of candidates but it does mean having to inspect the whole 1911 Census for 2nd Bn Black Watch.

 

 

[charlie962]

27 minutes ago, Gunga Din said:

It will at least reduce the number of candidates

That's what I thought. I did look through the rest of the census for 2nd Bn (every other page upside down on the version I saw) , looking for men under 20. I only saw 1 private under 20. That's why I thought maybe the young recruits went to the home Bn first before shipping overseas. There are more youngsters on the 1st Bn Census, but as I said it is very difficult to read names.

 

Thanks for your continued detailed input.

 

Charlie

[Gunga Din]

This might help....the subgroup of the 2nd Bn who disembarked in Marseille on 12th Oct 1914 with the 1911 Census Year of Birth (YOB) added. I have taken the liberty of adding the implied ages in 1914 as well as the implied age on enlistment (as a check). The results are fairly obvious and despite the gaps It seems to suggest most and possibly all were in their twenties. at least...

 

Variance will be +/- 1 year....which still puts the youngest in their early 20s. If Jordan and Pratt enlisted at 17 in 1911 they would be 20-21 in 1914

 

Edit. Added Peter Crichton who I missed on first perusal. 

 

Enlisted	Enlist Age	No	Rank	Forename	Surname	YOB	Age 1914	Dis Date
1898		6830	Sgt Piper	John	Keith DCM	-		12/10/1914
1898	18	7184	Pte	Donald	McMaster	1880	34	12/10/1914
1901	17	8358	Cpl	Angus	McLeod	1884	30	12/10/1914
1903	22	9476	Piper	Joseph	Gordon	1881	33	12/10/1914
1904	17	65	Piper	John	Duthie	1887	27	12/10/1914
1904	21	9908	Piper	James McLeish	Wann	1883	31	12/10/1914
1905	18	365	L/Cpl	Robert	Johnstone	1887	27	12/10/1914
1906	20	699	Pte	David	Armit	1886	28	12/10/1914
1906	17	779	Pte	Andrew	Hadden	1889	25	12/10/1914
1906	18	467	Pte	John	Kidd	1888	26	12/10/1914
1906	17	736	Pte	David Smith	Simpson	1889	25	12/10/1914
1907	17	1165	Piper	Peter	Crichton	1890	24	12/10/1914
1907	17	941	Pte	Peter	McNee DCM	1890	24	12/10/1914
1907	17	1171	Pte	Thomas	Tallon	1890	24	12/10/1914
1908	18	1449	Pte	John Grant	Davis	1890	24	12/10/1914
1908	22	1350	Pte	Thomas R	Logan	1886	28	12/10/1914
1908	19	1478	Pte	Thomas	Phinn	1889	25	12/10/1914
1908	18	1358	Pte	David F	Player	1890	24	12/10/1914
1909	20	1539	Pte	Alexander	McDonald	1889	25	12/10/1914
1910		1848	Pte	William	Bradley	-		12/10/1914
1910	17	1871	Pte	James (John)	Galloway	1894	21	12/10/1914
1911		1998	Pte	John	Jordan	-		12/10/1914
1911		1919	Pte	Alexander	Pratt DCM			12/10/1914

 

 

Gunga Din

Edited 21 September , 2018 by Gunga Din

[charlie962]

Clever stuff. A biig chunk ruled out. So Bradley, Jordan and Platt are still contenders. If aged 16 or 17 when enlisting 1910/11 then aged 19-21 in 1914 perhaps ?

 

Charlie

PS just a reminder (for me) that Bradley is 1848

Edited 20 September , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

this extract from Pipes of War (link post19) repeats some of what has been mentioned above and the need to look widely for ranks:

             

[charlie962]

A search of newspapers for Black Watch + Piper + Bradley/Platt/Jordan has only brought up the Bradley hit above and I don't know if that gives a clue to age ? 41 wounds !

 

the 1911 census for 1st Bn doesn't even give full surnames a lot of the time so not much help there.

 

Charlie

[Gunga Din]

Age breakdown of the 2nd Bn Black Watch in 1911 suggests that just 2% of men were teenagers. Running the clock forward 3 years would of course make the 15 year olds 18 year olds etc......... checking the names of the twenty teenagers on the 1911 Census against the 1914 Star medal roll identifies only three potential matches:

 

Pte John Ross born 1895 .........................a possible match for No. 1460 Dmr J Ross.................disembarked 12 Oct 1914... Discharged no longer fit  on 23 Jun 1915

 

Pte John Galloway born 1894 ...................a possible match for No. 1871 Pte J Galloway.............disembarked 12 Oct 1914....killed 8th Oct 1915. CWGC has him as a 'Piper' https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/194773/galloway,-/

 

Pte Wm Ge Edward Wright born 1894...... a possible match for No. 1272 Pte W G Wright...........disembarked 12 Oct 1914.....no record of fate. Note BMW has Wm G E Wright

 

We have three men who are very likely to have been teenagers in 1911 and who would be 19, 20 and 22 years old respectively in 1914 and who disembarked at Marseille in 1914 - very probably the youngest in the Battalion.  In August 1914 the 2nd Bn Black Watch had 1008 Other Ranks on its books. On mobilisation it took 20 Reservists residing in India who were working in the Jute industry.  It embarked with 934 Other Ranks (which included the 1st reinforcements) having left 94 men behind.

 

Page 163 of the History, Footnote 2:

"The normal mobilization strength in India was 816 other ranks. A few days after mobilization this figure was increased by 37, to allow replacement of the native servants and syces included in the normal scale, which was based on service within India. A first reinforcement of ten per cent was also added. The Battalion
received 20 reservists, men of the Regiment who had taken their discharge in India and obtained employment there, usually in the jute trade. Thus the Battalion
had to find 118 less 20, i.e. 98 men more than the normal mobilization establishment."

 

John Ross is intriguing as he is recorded as a Drummer on the 1914 Star roll, so worth exploring. 

 

On current evidence No. 1871 Piper John Galloway would be my prime suspect. BWM confirms his forename. Enlisted in 1910 aged 17. Definitely in India, and definitely disembarked at Marseille aged 20 or 21 in 1914. Killed Oct 1915. It is notable that whil CWGC has him as a 'Piper', his name is not included in the list in the book. Another example of how records often don't align. Edited. 1871 enlisted in 1910 not 1911.

 

The caveat is that between 1911 and 1914 another 250 odd men would have arrived in India as part of the regular trooping replacing men who were time expired. In 1912 for example, the 2nd Bn Black Watch received 173 men trooped from the UK

 

 

2nd Bn Black Watch 1911 Census: Age breakdown. 

15 year olds        3

16 year olds        3

17 year olds        2

18 year olds        4

19 year olds        8

20 year olds      64

21 year olds    125

22 year olds    151

23 year olds    178

24 year olds    138

25 year olds      81

26 year olds      68

27 year olds      46

28 year olds      38

29 year olds      29

30 year olds      30

Above 30          87

Not recorded      3

Total             1,049

Edited 20 September , 2018 by Gunga Din

[charlie962]

10 hours ago, Heid the Ba said:

Methil was in a mining area

On 1st Bn 1911 Census there is what looks like a Pte W Bradley, trade Coal Miner, aged 20 who might be the same ?Bit of a guess but if so it would rule him out as being ~23 in 1914 ?

charlie

[charlie962]

 

 

For John Galloway there is a newspaper report here:

 

Effects (second entry here) says Sole Legatee Father,John

 

There is a service record for an Alexander Galloway whose Father was John Galloway of Back o Dykes Alloa. Aged 33 in 1915. Perhaps a brother ? There is a 1901 census that has a John aged 8 and Alexander aged 16 living in Alloa with family Seaton. ie John b 1893 ish

 

There are quite a few J Galloways in the Black Watch. Even came across this listing of a photo (no image available) but attributed to 5766 killed 1918. Not our man but I always wonder about quality of attribution?

       Pre 1914 Photograph of 5766  Piper. John Galloway. KIA 19 July 1918.

Pre 1914 Head & shoulder photograph of 5766 Piper. John Galloway.     KIA 19 July 1918.
Cpl John Galloway 1BW - medal roll South Africa
CSM John Galloway 8BW - Wauchope
P/2BW/1914-19?/NearEast/6/5 - crossed through
A/N 3187/24
Poor condition, damage across photograph and mount stained.

Edited 20 September , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, Gunga Din said:

Killed Oct 1918.

Did you mean 1915 ?

6 hours ago, Gunga Din said:

his name is not included in the list in the book

In book as James ?

 

Edit -above are re John Galloway

Edited 20 September , 2018 by charlie962

[Gunga Din]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Did you mean 1915 ?

In book as James ?

 

Edit -above are re John Galloway

 

1. Yes. Will amend.

2. Probable match. Despite the same number and surnames the book and official records don't always tally on forenames. Prime suspect. 

 

Edit. Can't be the same J Galloway in the press article. To have served 7 years in India means enlistment by 1914 would mean enlistment in 1996-07 and a much earlier Army Number. 

Edited 20 September , 2018 by Gunga Din

[Gunga Din]

The 1911 Census has:

 

James Galloway born Dunfermline in 1886......aged 25 in 1911.....aged 28 in 1914

John Galloway born Clackmannan in 1894......aged 17 in 1911......aged 20 in 1914

 

The only J Galloway on the 1914 Star roll is No. 1871 who would have enlisted in 1910. Cross checking No. 1871 against the BWM shows 'J' to be 'John' not 'James', so unless the BWM roll made a mistake (a possibility no matter how unlikley) we can be fairly certain J Galloway on the 1914 Star roll was John Galloway in the 1911 Census

 

No. 1610 Pte James Galloway disembarked on 2nd May 1915, with the 1/7th Battalion (TF) so can not be the subject.

 

The only other J Galloway in the Black Watch 1914 Star medal rolls is No. 105 J Galloway disembarked 13th Aug 1914 and would have been a 1st Battalion man, part of the Main Body. No BWM reference (unusual)...but after some digging we find in the Military Foot Police on their BWM roll confirmed as previously "Pte 1st Bn Royal Highlanders" which would seem an odd place to post a Piper to. If still fit a piper's skills might be better employed among one of the 22 Battalions of the Black Watch or any of the other Scottish Regiments. There is no record indicating this J Galloway was a piper. 

 

Incidentally this No. 105 J Galloway enlisted in 1904. If aged 17 would have been 27 in 1914 and in billets in Hazebrouck with the 1st Battalion and the rest of the 1st Guards Brigade on the day the subject was sketched in Limoges.

 

As previously mentioned, a number of men in Pipes of War have Army Numbers or forenames recorded incorrectly, so it is a possibility that the J for John has been confused as J for James in the book. Something to consider.

 

Unless a photo turns up I suspect we will not get beyond narrowing it down to a  few candidates based on a number of assumptions. Pratt DCM should in theory be the easiest to research.

 

One last point, the chances of a 1st Battalion man being posted to the 2nd Battalion was about nil. The 1st Reinforcement of the 2nd Bn was sent to the 1st Battalion on 14th Nov 1914 after it was destroyed during First Ypres. A quite well known example of large scale cross posting of men at a point where regular battalions were beginning to run out of men. I think we can eliminate the idea that 1st Battalion men were sent to the 2nd Battalion.

 

Gunga Din

Edited 21 September , 2018 by Gunga Din

[Skipman]

Am pretty sure it is not 941 Peter McNee (actually McNie).

 

Mike

[charlie962]

13 hours ago, Gunga Din said:

Edit. Can't be the same J Galloway in the press article. To have served 7 years in India means enlistment by 1914 would mean enlistment in 1996-07 and a much earlier Army Number. 

I am fairly certain that the Galloway in the press article is the John Galloway 1871, who was born c1893/4 and comes from Clackmannan and thus remains a possible candidate. The Newspaper ref to 7 years in India is probably out.

 

5 hours ago, Gunga Din said:

Unless a photo turns up I suspect we will not get beyond narrowing it down to a  few candidates based on a number of assumptions. Pratt DCM should in theory be the easiest to research. 

That would seem to be where we will end up. I shall look at Pratt 1919.

 

Thanks

Charlie

[charlie962]

Pratt 1919 has a good DCM citation and rank of Sgt. Would the lad in the portrait have risen to all this so quickly?

     

 

I suspect we can rule him out .

 

charlie

[Marilyne]

I can't get my head around how fast you guys can look these things up...

so the contenders would be around 20 years old... I really thought from the pictures that the guy was underage. But on the other hand, looking at the 18year old we now have running around in the barracks, they do look VERY young...

And I guess the artist gave himself a bit of liberty too... the pdrawing would not have the same appeal to us if it showed a seasoned soldier with the pipes in hand. Especially in the first one, one can see the contrast between the innocent piper and the 2 guys behind him, standing a bit like bodyguards, watching over "their" piper.

 

M.