Who was this young Scottish piper 1914 ?

[charlie962]

These three sketches done by Eugene Alluaud (edit) at Limoges Station in 1914 seem to show the same young piper. Is it possible to identify him? Or at least his Regiment ? There is a fourth sketch that for which I await a copy.

 

All that I know is that he was of a Scottish regiment that was part of an Indian Division en route from Marseille to the Front in 1914. The train stopped at Limoges and the troops camped.

 

 

Charlie

Edited 18 September , 2018 by charlie962

[Steven Broomfield]

Given that the other chaps are kilted despite apparently not being pipers, my money's on either the 2nd Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) who were in the Bareilly Bde of the Meerut Division, or the 1st Seaforth, who were in the Dehra Dun Brigade of the same division.

 

As the chap's glengarry is apparently plain (i.e. no dicing), as are those of his companions, I'd settle for the Black Watch.

[Gardenerbill]

From an artistic point of view, very technically competent drawings, is the artist Eugene Alluaud?

[Marilyne]

Looks very young to me... wonder if he was 18 yet...

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

is the artist Eugene Alluaud?

Yes. I posted the other day about him but didn't get any response?  Perhaps the wrong topic. Anyway a very good artist who did these sketches amongst others in 1914, and 1915 (I've seen some of British Army at Rouen), and at the Front 1916/1917. He covered the French Army and German PoWs as well as sketches  inside the Limoges munitions factories.

His sister Camille married George Edward Phillips who, as a Major, RE, earned the DSO and was killed in action in Somaliland 1902.George and Camille had 2 sons, one of whom, Charles George Phillips, started in the W Yorks but ended a Lt Col DSO,MC Kings African Rifles

 

I believe he had other military connections that allowed him access to the Army  I've just seen another lot of his drawings this morning. I shall try to post some copies on the forum.

 

2 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

I'd settle for the Black Watch.

Thank you for that pointer. I shall look at the War Diary to see if it covers this period and gives appropriate dates. I know that it is all rather a long shot but interesting to try.

 

6 minutes ago, Marilyne said:

Looks very young to me... wonder if he was 18 yet...

That is why I thought it might be possible to trace him ?

 

Charlie

Edited 18 September , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

A look at War Diaries at Bareilly Bde level skips over any halt at Limoges, going from Marseille early 19/10/14 and arriving outside Orleans 21/10. The Black Watch doesn't start until 30/10/14.

[Gunga Din]

As part of the IEF-A, the 1st Bn Seaforth Highlanders passed through Limoges on 19th Oct 1914 on it way from Marseille to Orleans. Ditto 2nd Bn Black Watch (not recorded in its diary (missing) but the Brigade diary confirms). Given he has no rank on his sleeve, there are only a few contenders on the 1914 Star medal rolls:

 

1st Bn Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Buffs):

No. 7900 Piper William Cowan

No. 10457 Piper John Stewart

(all others were either senior, disembarked too late or were 2nd Bn)

 

2nd Bn Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

No. 65 Piper J Duthie

No. 1165 Piper Peter Crichton

No. 9476 Piper Joseph Gordon

No. 9908 piper James Wann

 

Caveat is that this assumes the 1914 star medal roll captured everyone accurately. A note of caution: the Highland Scottish numbering system is extremely complex. in 1908 the Gordons, A&SH and Seaforths all started a new number series. 

 

Gunga Din

 

 

Edited 18 September , 2018 by Gunga Din

[charlie962]

The Dehra Dun Bde Diary has this appropriate entry:

               

[charlie962]

5 minutes ago, Gunga Din said:

there are only a few contenders on the 1914 Star medal rolls

Thank you very much. I shall look at these men.

Charlie

[charlie962]

Not James Wann:

 

PiperWANN, JAMES MCLEISH

Service Number 9908

Died 13/03/1915

Aged 34

2nd Bn.
Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Son of Alexander and Isabel Paton Wan

 

 

Not Duthie- aged 31

 

Edited 18 September , 2018 by charlie962

[Gunga Din]

For complex reasons due to new number series, the 'youngest' piper among the Black Watch would be Crichton, enlisted 1907. The artist may well have been drawn to the subject on account of his youth, the novelty of les highlanders and their unusual (to French eyes) uniforms. The subject looks quite young. 

 

Paul Sarrut (a better artist) was equally interested in les Hindousand and  les Highlanders and produced a series sketches turned into postcards of both although his work dates from Sep 1915.

http://www.archivespasdecalais.fr/Activites-culturelles/Carrousels/Les-soldats-indiens-sous-le-regard-de-Paul-Sarrut

 

It is interesting to compare their work with "Snaffles" (Charles Johnson Payne) and Gilbert Holiday's work. The latterwas more RHA inclined. All have quite similar styles. 

8 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Not James Wann:

 

PiperWANN, JAMES MCLEISH

Service Number 9908

Died 13/03/1915

Aged 34

2nd Bn.
Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Son of Alexander and Isabel Paton Wan

 

To save you some time here are the years of enlistments

 

1st Bn Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Buffs):

No. 7900 Piper William Cowan.....1903...killed in Nov 1914 aged 31 so probably not him either.

No. 10457 Piper John Stewart......1908

(all others were either senior, disembarked too late or were 2nd Bn)

 

2nd Bn Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

No. 65 Piper J Duthie...................1904

No. 1165 Piper Peter Crichton......1907

No. 9476 Piper Joseph Gordon.....1903

No. 9908 piper James Wann........1903

Edited 18 September , 2018 by Gunga Din

[charlie962]

So all are looking too old- oh dear.

[charlie962]

9 minutes ago, Gunga Din said:

, the novelty

I'm sure that applied to les Hindous as well.

[charlie962]

13 minutes ago, Gunga Din said:

(a better artist

They are excellent. Thanks for the link.

[Gunga Din]

6 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

So all are looking too old- oh dear.

 Boy soldier enlisting in 1907-1908?

 

[rolt968]

I wonder if 2 Black Watch had any pipers who were not on the strength as pipers? If so I have no idea how we proceed.

Alternatively, could he be a band boy? (Were there band boys who were effectively trainee pipers?)

RM

Edited 18 September , 2018 by rolt968

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, rolt968 said:

I wonder if 2 Black Watch had any pipers who were not on the strength as pipers? If so I have no idea how we proceed.

Alternatively, could he be a band boy? (Were there band boys who were effectively trainee pipers?)

RM

This is entirely possible since only 6 pipers were officially on strength.

[Steven Broomfield]

52 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

This is entirely possible since only 6 pipers were officially on strength.

 

Are you happy with my Black watch suggestion?

[charlie962]

Cannot find a DoB yet for Peter Crichton but did see this on Forces War Records (Pipes of War) for LCpl Peter Crichton 1165

 

The pipers suffered heavy casualties at Neuve Chapelle in March 1915 and at many other subsequent engagements. Whilst at Neuve Chapelle the pipers were also employed as bombers. On one occasion Piper Crichton played from one end of the line to the other out in the open. While the battalion was in France several pipers were either wounded or killed during the first year of the war. When the battalion went to Mesopotamia the pipers were employed in miscellaneous duties In the ranks.

 

This suggests he would be an older man ?

 

Charlie

 

Hadn't seen this before, free on archive org with the link I've posted above:

         

 

Edited 18 September , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, Gunga Din said:

 Boy soldier enlisting in 1907-1908?

What would be the minimum age at that date ?

[charlie962]

From the Pipes of War, this is a list of 2nd Bn Pipers, although GungaDin has eliminated many due to not being on 14 Star Roll.

                   

    

[charlie962]

365 Robert Johnstone qualified for 14Star (not clasp?). What is his probable date of enlistment ?

 

 

Edit-  probably 1905 ?

 

Presumably 1911 census for 2nd Black Watch may be worth looking at ?

Edited 18 September , 2018 by charlie962

[Gunga Din]

The 1914 Star medal rolls are not perfect. In fact no records are perfect. 

 

My concern/caveats stated earlier are that my suggested list of potential candidates assumes (maybe incorrectly) that the rolls are correct. War Establishment for Highland Regiments included six Pipers yet the Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) and the Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Buffs) 1914 Star medal rolls fall short for both Regiments' Battalions for disembarkations prior to 19th Oct 1914 (both incidentally 12th Oct 1914); the implications are that these Battalions disembarked with less than Piper establishment (extremely unlikely I think, although sickness between Bombay/Karachi via Aden, Port Tewfik, Suez, Cairo, Alexandria, Malta and Camp Borely Marseille is a possibility).... or..... the rolls contain errors (more likely). The chances of mistaking Pte for Ppr in handwritten shorthand is ever present.The absence of complete Service Records and Pension Records etc means that it is unlikely to come to a water-tight argument. We need to trace and eliminate all but one piper and on the available information this seems highly unlikely. Close but not close enough.

 

One wild card is the possibility of earlier disembarked pipers with the other BEF battalions (Aug 1914) being subsequently posted to the IEF-A Battalions. In a scenario where the IEF-A battalion was a Piper short due to illness or age restriction (?) there is a very remote possibility that piper was posted from one battalion to another. It is something to consider but I think this is such a remote possibility as to be negligible; any posting would probably have been to the Battalion once concentrated at Orleans. The young Piper in the sketch was either off the boat in Marseille a week before or a bit of artist's licence, using stock (photographic) images as a source to enhance a rough sketch. The most striking aspect of the image is the sharp contrast in detail of the subject's face and the lack of detail in the rest of the image. We need to remember that this was a commercial artists trying to make a Franc; depicting a particularly young and exotic highlander would appeal more to the parochial masses of France when turned into a postcard. These seem like working sketches as the heights and deportment of the three men are relatively consistent from one image to another, the centre parting consistent in the main subject and pushed back glengarry in two of the three images. The artist's treatment of the spats and boots is poor as contemporary photos show them looking more like shirehorses' hooves - much more bulky. Again this suggests rough eyeballed sketches of unfamiliar subjects and proportions with facial detail of the prime subject added later, probably in the studio in my view or, (if the subject stood still for long enough), using a camera lucida. I prefer the former theory. 

 

The only step forward I can see is a professional judgment on the plaid; Mackenzie (Seaforth) or Royal Stewart (Black Watch - only for pipers I believe) although I am by no stretch of the imagination knowledgeable about either. My inclination is that the quality of the crayon sketch is not good enough to differentiate between the two.

 

Gunga Din

Edited 18 September , 2018 by Gunga Din

[Gunga Din]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

From the Pipes of War, this is a list of 2nd Bn Pipers, although GungaDin has eliminated many due to not being on 14 Star Roll.

                   

    

 

 

An example of the error ratios: 1838 James Bradley was in fact 1848 James Bradley (enlisted 1911 -  a good candidate) but incidentally recorded as a Pte not a Piper on the 1914 Star medal roll. 1838 was W Johnstone as confirmed in the Star rolls and BWM and VM rolls. 

 

467 John Kidd (enlisted 1906) disembarked with the 2nd Bn Black Watch on 12th Oct 1914 but is recorded as a Pte on the medal rolls. 

 

I would suggest trawling the list above against the medal rolls the above two (wounded in Nov 1914) were obvious stand outs in the time line.

[charlie962]

12 hours ago, Gunga Din said:

 We need to remember that this was a commercial artists trying to make a Franc;

I believe he made (and inherited) much of his money (and maybe lost some) from porcelaine but his passion was painting.So I don't think he was a 'struggling' artist. As to the quality and comparison with other artists, frankly I'm not too clever on all that but I particularly liked the informality of his sketches.  I have seen some that are clearly working drawings for later work in the studio- notes on colour and detail written alongside the sketch. There doesn't seem to be any surviving evidence of him using photographs although his brother Charles, a noted entomologist,was an excellent photographer and some 2,000 glass plates of his still survive.

 

Thanks for your continuing detailed notes on possible piper candidates.

 

Charlie