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Remembered Today:

Germans and thir Ypres 1917


krycha101
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Hi!

I have been working for several yeras on the book about the battle of Passchendaele (or thir Ypres). This topic is completely unknown in my country - Poland. I have read several books about that battle but most of them are extremely poor in terms of the German point of view. There are no German accounts, diaries but especially maps and OOBs. I wonder if sb could help me. I need every possible information about the German units involved in the "Flandernschlacht 1917". I know that this area is rather extensive but I can give some hints...

1. map showing deployment of german 4th army (including divisions!) and 6th army in Flandre 31st July 1917

2. Detailed OOB of German forces from the coast to the Messines area (especially 4th army)

3. Changes in the structure of German forces in the course of battle. Deployment of German Guards Corps etc.

4. Some maps showing eployment of german divisions in the particular phases of the struggle (Menin Road, Broodseinde, Langermarck, Passchendaele etc.)

Please give a source if possible.

Every information concerning German side in third Ypres would be helpful for me!

Best Regards

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Hi!

I have been working for several yeras on the book about the battle of Passchendaele (or thir Ypres). This topic is completely unknown in my country - Poland. I have read several books about that battle but most of them are extremely poor in terms of the German point of view. There are no German accounts, diaries but especially maps and OOBs. I wonder if sb could help me. I need every possible information about the German units involved in the "Flandernschlacht 1917". I know that this area is rather extensive but I can give some hints...

1. map showing deployment of german 4th army (including divisions!) and 6th army in Flandre 31st July 1917

2. Detailed OOB of German forces from the coast to the Messines area (especially 4th army)

3. Changes in the structure of German forces in the course of battle. Deployment of German Guards Corps etc.

4. Some maps showing eployment of german divisions in the particular phases of the struggle (Menin Road, Broodseinde, Langermarck, Passchendaele etc.)

Please give a source if possible.

Every information concerning German side in third Ypres would be helpful for me!

Best Regards

If you can read German, you can have a look for the "Reichsarchiv" series. There is one band about "Ypern 1917" and his might be a good start. It is relatively easy to find on e-bay for reasonable prices (take care that the maps and eventually the organisation of the involved units are included, they are often on separate sheets but should be included if the book is complete). With reasonable prices I mean between 4 and 10 euro, postage and packaging not included. You can also have a look on abebooks.de (Germany). Most of the books were published end of the 20's or beginning of the 30's.

Erwin

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Welcome to the Forum krycha101!

Although not definitive you might use some of Ernst Junger's works to get an idea of the German perspective. I know he details his time durning the battle in his most famous work Storm of Steel. I am not sure about what is in Copse 125 or his other works.

If would also be beneficial if you looked through another thread on the Forum about German Forums similar to this one. It appeared within the last few days. Once I finish this reply I will look to see if I can find it for you. Since their focus is in German they might be able to get you to the sources you need more quickly.

Good Luck! Andy

PS ....

here is the thread I was referring to.

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Hello,

Forget the Schlachten des Weltkrieges and even the Reichsarchiv. Especially Flandern 1917 is awful! If you want real info, try the memoirs of Crownprince Rupprecht von Bayern or General von Loßberg (Chief of Staff of the 4. Armee). There were a lot (really) of German divisions and Gruppen involved in the fighting and there were lots of changes in tactics during these months to perfect the methods of defence.

The Gardekorps and Gardereservekorps were deployed in Flanders in 1917-18 but they were Gruppen, only the Generalkommandos of these units were there. By this time divisions didn't belong to a particular Corps any more...

Regards,

Jan

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. . . snip, snip . . .

Every information concerning German side in third Ypres would be helpful for me!

Best Regards

This would be helpful for many of us! You have touched on one of the weaknesses of our understanding of those events. Due to a combination of linguistic indolence and lack of documentation, most of us are familiar only with the British side of the lines.

Even the wee bit I know of the other side often comes from "our" side. For example this is a snippet of an intelligence summary of the 2nd Canadian Division from November, 1917 in front of Passchendaele. It demonstrates how the interogation of prisoners was used to compile the other fellow's order of battle.

If you have no better sources of information you can browse through these. Unfortunately, it seems that the only easily accessible source of these is the on-line Canadian War Diaries which are available here (or ici ).

These only cover parts of October and November, and only for the central part of the salient.

I'm sorry that this is the best I can do.

post-4-1105655305.jpg

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Correction: Flandern 1917. Ypern (without 1917 in the title) is a different band.

Erwin

If I only had that book your mother language (I suppose) would not be a problem.

Regards!

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I have a map that shows German Artillery dispositions, dated 8th October 1917 that covers from Passchendaele to Becelaere. If it is any use in future, please contact me.

best regards,

Chris

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Correction: Flandern 1917. Ypern (without 1917 in the  title) is a different band.

Erwin

If I only had that book your mother language (I suppose) would not be a problem.

Regards!

I'm not German, if this is what you think (they tried twice in the last hundred years to make me German, but luckily enough the rest of the world didn't agree with that (joke)).

These books are easy and cheap to find on e-bay, as I mentioned in my last message. I know their historical value is subject to discussion, but if the map and the ORBAT comes with it is a good start (Jan, notice the word START).

Erwin

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I forgot something: there is a German website "Nachrichtendienst für Historiker" which deals also with WW1 books, mostly German. Maybe give it a try?

Erwin

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