Pte Henry Johnson Machine Gun Corps 119732

[janice52]

A friend has asked me to find out everything I can about Pte Henry Johnson of the Machine Gun Corps (119732) in WW1. He has the bible which was presented to Pte Johnson by the National Bible Society of Scotland and would like to know if he is related to him or to find those that are.

So far all I have been able to find is his medal card. As his service records were probably destroyed I have not been able to find anything about his origins. The only clue is that the inscription in the bible says 'age 19'.

Any help would be appreciated.

[johnmelling1979]

Hello

 

Just seen you have also been posting on ….

 

http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/forum/topic17331.html

 

119732 Pte., 3 Co., M.G.C. if that's still correct?

 

Have you managed to piece much more together,  Do you think he was living in Scotland circa WW1

As the 1911 Scotland  census would obviously help  narrow down clues to family

Also the National Bible Society of Scotland is now   https://scottishbiblesociety.org/  they may be able to help?

As the other posts you've had  mentioned -  Johnsons surname is a pain in the ****. as I have many in my tree.

  

 

Cheers John

 

 

 

[janice52]

Hi John

Yes, I have also posted on http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/forum/topic17331.html

An Absent Voters List in 1918 has him (or his family) living in Fincham, Norfolk - so no I don't think he was living in Scotland. I had assumed that the National Bible Society of Scotland supplied the bibles to the army for them to distribute but I will bear your suggestion in mind.

Henry was Pte 119732 in the Machine Gun Corps and after the war was Pte 72695 in the Norfolk Regiment. A form completed on 21Aug1919 (part of his brother John's service record)gives his address as 2nd Norfolk Regiment India - his service records may not therefore have been released yet.

His father was Thomas Johnson who died in 1909. His mother was Mary Jane (nee Watts) who married Mills Lock in 1911. He had a sister Mary Elizabeth who died in 1906 and his brother John Thomas died on 13Jul1916 in WW1. He also had a sister Violet Rosina born 1903.

I am currently awaiting replies to some messages I have sent out.

Janice

[PRC]

The 1911 Census has the widowed Mary Jane Johnson, aged 42 and born Feltwell living at The Square, Feltwell. Mary states she has had four children, of which three were then still alive. She was living on Parish Relief. Mary had initially completed the census return showing all three children, but has struck one through as presumably they were not at home on the night of the census. This was the 15 year old Henry Ephraim with a place of birth I can't work out - probably starts witha C and ends with a ham. The other two are John Thomas, aged 18 and a Labourer on Farm, born Wilton, Norfolk, and Violet 'Roseneir', aged 8 and also born Wilton.

 

Tracking the family down on the 1901 census the 5 year old Henry was shown as born Crimplesham, Norfolk. The family were living at Waterloo Cottages, Sturston, Norfolk, father was Thomas, aged 50 and a horseman on farm, born Feltwell, while mother Mary "A", aged 30, gives her birthplace as Hockwold-cum-Wilton, Norfolk. Other children in the household are Mary, (10) and John, (7), both born Hockwold-cum-Wilton.

 

His birth place of Crimplesham at that time fell within the Downham Registration District. There is one potential match from that District in the birth records that I can't rule out from the mothers maiden name as its not showing up in the sources I have access to. This was the birth of a Harry E H Johnson that was registered in the January to March quarter of 1896. However there are census records for a Harry E, so I was almost back to drawing a blank.

 

While investigating the possibility of a baptism record with a view to tracking down a precise date of birth, I came across a record on the familysearch site that a 19 year old Henry Johnson, born Crimplesham, Norfolk, enlisted in the 3rd Norfolks in 1915 with service number 17930.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVB2-Y7VH

They state they have records viewable at one of their family history centres. I don't have a subscription to Ancestry but have tried their publicly available search and couldn't find any likely matches. He would have been old enough by 1915 to serve, so can't see why he would have been released unless it was on grounds of health. I have come across instances where soldiers have been discharged as unfit in the early years of the war only to be caught up in conscription as the medical standards were lowered. There is no Medal Index Card for anyone serving with the Norfolk Regiment with service number 17930 in the National Archive catalougue.

 

I can't see a likely death of a Henry Ephraim or Harry Ephraim born c1896 in England and Wales, (I was looking for probate record that might have named a wife), There is also no likely death of a Violet Rosina \ Rosenier, so I checked out the marriages for a Violet R Johnston, born circa 1903 up until 1941 to see if I could identifiy a matching death for a Violet R with the new husbands surname who was born in 1903, but drew another blank. I also had a quick look for the marriage of a Violet R  Lock in case her stepfather had adopted her but nothing there either as far as England and Wales are concerned. So it may be worthwhile checking the 1939 National Register for both of them.

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

[Mark1959]

There is a Henry Ephraim Johnson that died registered Hitchin, Herts. Death Reg, 3Q 1978. DoB given as 13/11/1897. There is a Birth Reg. with full correct name Downham 2Q 1898.

There are scraps of records for Henry Johnson 17930. Attested 11/1/1915 claiming to be 19y 1m old. NoK mother Jane Lock. 3rd Norfolks. Spent his time in Felixstowe until discharged 9/8/15 due to “misstatement of age on enlistment” If he was born as above he was claiming to be 2 years older than actually was. Address of Henry and mother is Shingham near Swaffham.

Edited 13 October , 2018 by Mark1959

[PRC]

6 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

There is a Henry Ephraim Johnson that died registered Hitchin, Herts. Death Reg, 3Q 1978. DoB given as 13/11/1897. There is a Birth Reg. with full correct name Downham 2Q 1898.

There are scraps of records for Henry Johnson 17930. Attested 11/1/1915 claiming to be 19y 1m old. NoK mother Jane Lock. 3rd Norfolks. Spent his time in Felixstowe until discharged 9/8/15 due to “misstatement of age on enlistment” If he was born as above he was claiming to be 2 years older than actually was. Address of Henry and mother is Shingham near Swaffham.

 

Mark, (and Janice),

 

I saw those birth and death records but had discounted them, although they are still not beyond the realms of possibility, epecially as there is no other likely candidate for his birth in England and Wales in the right timescale.

 - if he lied about his age in 1915 it was a lie that had been maintained for a long time - he was recorded as aged 5 on the 1901 Census and 15 on the 1911 Census, long before any propspect of going to war would have arisen.

 - a birth of the 13th November 1897 that was registered in Q2 of 1898 would have by far exceeded the normal 42 days to register a birth with the Civil Authorities which I believe applied even back then. A court appearance and fine would have followed, although some did still take the risk.

- The man who died in Hitchin District in 1978 could have been born anywhere, so could be nothing more than a co-incidence.

 

So my initial thoughts were could someone else underage have used his details to enlist in 1915 and it was this that was uncovered by sight of the birth certificate.

 

I also have to admit that when I looked at the Civil Records my "spidey senses" started to tingle - a woman marrying a much older man in their social circumstances was not an uncommon route for a single mother to legitimise her children - which might also explain the lack of baptism and discrepancies over when the births were registered. But Thomas Johnson and Mary Jane Watt appear to have married in 1889, before even their first child was born, so that does not appear to be the scenario here.

 

I then took a look at the family whereabouts. They were in Hockwold-cum-Wilton in c1890/91, (birth of Mary), and 1892/93, (birth of John Thomas), Crimplesham in 1895/96, (birth of Henry Ephraim) and Stuston when the 1901 census was taken. One of the possibilities is that Henry was a private adoption and thus could have been registered with a different surname. There is a Thomas Johnson recorded living in a dwelling near the Stow Road, Crimplesham, but that was only on the 1900 edition of the Norfolk Register of Electors.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DR49-NY7?i=91&cc=1824705

 

This family certainly likes to sow confusion in the official records. I tried looking to see if the step-father Mills Lock could be traced through to the 1915 Electoral Register to tie in with the Shingham address on the 1915 enlistment. 

 

Mills Lock is on the 1911 edition of the Norfolk Register of Electors living at a dwelling house near Bell Inn, Methwold, having recently moved there from Fair hill, Methwold.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2HB7-G7B

 

However he is not on the 1912 edition at Methwold nor could I find him anywhere else. He was not on the 1915 edition at Shingham, (compiled autumn 1914).

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRPS-28M?i=189&cc=1824705

(Nor are there any Johnsons recorded as voters, just in case it was another individual altogether, although if Mary who was the mother of the Norfolk Regiment Private was separated and was the head of the household she almost certainly wouldn’t be entitled to the vote and so wouldn’t appear.)

 

On the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census he is recorded as Mills Lock  - but the marriage record is of a Miles Lock. Looks likely he died in the Downham District of Norfolk in the January to March quarter of 1948, so a death isn’t a reason why he is not on the electoral register.

 

So for now lots of dead ends and red herrings. If nobody else dives in I'll try searching the 1939 National Register next time I'm in the Library.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Mark1959]

Peter

I must admit to feeling a bit uneasy. It does occur to me that someone declaring the age on the early 1915 enlistment as 19 y 1 m fits correctly with a Nov 1897 apart from  a couple too many years. The mid 1898 birth registration is concerning. There are 2 possible marriages for him in the early 1920s. An ancestry tree suggests one of the two - but they may or may not have personal knowledge.So I agree we have proved nothing and require additional evidence to prove beyond all doubt. If the 1978 death was in Kings Lynn area you would be a bit more confident, 

The Hitchin death reg in 1978 gives the dob as 13/11/1897.

I think we both have the same 1901 census return with him showing as 4.

Violet Rosina's baptism takes place in Wilton 8/2/1903 

To add to the confusion the 1911 census show Mary Jane (Head) on parish relief with John Thomas (18) and Violet Rosiner (8). Henry Ephraim (15) has been crossed out. Return is The Square, Feltwell.

 

[ss002d6252]

Nearest 1939 register entry I can see Nov 1897 is

 

Craig

[PRC]

35 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

I think we both have the same 1901 census return with him showing as 4.

 

 

I stand corrected :-)

 

 

[Mark1959]

Not sure it takes us any further forward! 

(Agnes) Gertrude Emmerson seems to be the favourite for his wife. Marriage registered in Thetford 1924. Think I can place her in Crimplesham at school in 1910. She seems to have died in Kings Lynn 1953 but no concrete proof.

My feeling is it was him that enlisted early 1915. 

The birth in Nov 1897 maybe him but records (age in censuses imply earlier). But lack of early 1897 or 1896 alternatives.

1898 Birth Reg may be him but seems a bit unlikely- alternatives ? 

No entries in 1939 for him or Gertrude if she is right. 

1978 Death in Hitchin - jury very much out.

I think actual certificates are likely to be the only way you can satisfy oneself you have all the right details for this soldier. An alternative would be the owner of the tree on ancestry to see if that person holds relevant records/info

[janice52]

Wow! Many thanks for all that research.

The only thing I can add is that, by searching for Gertrude, I have found a 1939 register entry for the family. This is at 26 Council Houses, Downham R.D. On this he gives his birth date as 13th November 1898. 

The birth in the 2nd quarter of 1898 gives his mother's maiden name as Watts and there is a marriage of Thomas Johnson & Mary Jane Watts in 1889 in Thetford district. This would therefore seem to be the correct birth entry but it doesn't match either the 1939 register or the death entry. 

I have not received any replies from the tree owners on Ancestry but will shortly be sending letters to some potential descendants.

[janice52]

Also:

I have been investigating John Johnson son of Mary Jane Lock of Fincham who died on 13th July 1916 and have found a service record for him. A statement from his mother dated 21Aug1919 gives details of his relatives which include his brother Henry, aged 20, address 2nd Norfolk Regiment, India - it sounds as if he became a regular soldier.

 

[kenf48]

As 72695 Henry Johnson served after 1920 (the Norfolk Roll was submitted in 1922) his records may be available from the MoD (Veterans Affairs).  There are lists on the forum of those records which are available.

 

He was posted to the 3 Battalion MGC at Clipstone Camp on the 27 September 1917.  As on the WDYTA thread he qualified for the ‘war medals’ by entering a theatre of war with the MGC, most likely France and given the AVL probably in March 1918.  I think 3 Company is a mistake 3 Battalion was the Training Battalion for the Corps.  For political reasons men were held back in the U.K. before the losses of the German Spring Offensive meant they were swiftly despatched to the BEF.

 

He would have gone into the Corps from a Training Reserve Battalion and then perhaps via a Reserve Battalion of a line infantry regiment but in the absence of a service record or overseas service these details are lost unless his record can be found.

He was probably released to the Z Reserve in April 1919.

 

There was a Scheme to get men to re-enlist and they were paid a bounty to do so, the amount depended on the initial commitment.  It would be natural for him to join up locally with the County Regiment.  Many of those who took advantage of this scheme were young men who had relatively little service in France and were able to contribute and reflect on the final victory.

 

Ken

[janice52]

Thank you to everyone who has replied to my post.
We have now managed to contact a descendant of Henry and the bible has been passed on to her.
Janice