Grave Concentration

[mancpal]

I am wondering if there is a way of finding out if a soldier had been buried in the field and his grave subsequently lost?

[delta]

I understand that concentration of smaller cemeteries took place after hostilities ended but not all previously known graves were found; the original location having been destroyed by subsequent fighting 

 

[mancpal]

Thanks, what I’m trying to find out is do records exist of field burials regardless of whether or not the grave was later found/ concentrated. My previous post wasn’t that clear. The soldier I’m concerned with is commemorated at Thiepval.

 

Simon

 

[Marilyne]

wouldn't you find such information in unit diaries?

Or in the archives of the War Graves Commission, as they kept recorsd of all their burials?

Also interesting are personnal recollections from soldiers who buried their friends and graves that are now lost. For example Alan Seeger's parents received a note with a drawing to find back the exact place where their son was buried, but the grave was still lost. That to me can also be considered a "record", as in a primal source of information.

 

MM.

[mancpal]

Marilyne

thanks for your reply. With regard to this soldier the war diary doesn’t mention any casualties at all for the date in question.

 

Simon

[Justinth]

Hi Mancpal

 

From a C.W.G.C. point of view I have written about their WW1 records, including the SSP 4995 burial report reference that can sometimes be found written next to names now on the Memorials to the Missing in the following index (as well as in references to graves in the index mentioned below, in CWGC Casualty Archive documents for cemeteries and documents in the CWGC archive):

 

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/2018/01/05/imperial-war-graves-commission-index-to-cemetery-and-memorial-registers-of-those-who-fell-in-the-great-war/

 

The articles explaining SSP burial reports, SSP 4995 and JK Reports (the last two based on German information about British/Dominion soldiers' burials/graves, some of which were in captured ground and recorded by the Germans during the 1918 Spring offensive) can be found by clicking on the index at the top of the glossary:

 

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/graves-registration-commission-directorate-of-graves-registration-enquiries-i-w-g-c-record-glossary/

 

There are many other entries explaining how the Graves Registration Commission/Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries and I.W.G.C. processed, recorded and disseminated the information they received.

 

More articles, including one on Chaplains and Divisional/Corps Burial Returns can be found here:

 

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/commonwealth-war-grave-casualty-archive-key/

 

For the Somme the entry on Captain Thomas and White Serial Crosses is also of particular interest:

 

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/graves-registration-commission-directorate-of-graves-registration-enquiries-i-w-g-c-record-glossary/#unique-identifier9a

 

 

Best

 

 

Justin

Edited 15 September , 2018 by Justinth

[Perth Digger]

Simon

If you look for your soldier in the Effects Registers, you may get a clue. If it says he was KIA and if the first date of his financial affairs is close to his date of death (within three to four months), it may suggest that his remains had been found and logged by the GRU. If, however, the registers say that he was presumed dead (they use various shorthands--On or since, DA (death accepted) or PD (death presumed)--and the finance date is much later (anything from 7 months onwards from date of death), then he probably was never found. This is a rough rule of thumb, but I have looked at hundreds of officers' effects data and it seems to me to be worth using in this way.

 

Mike

[TEW]

Simon, I don't think you'll find any records for what you're after.

 

Bearing in mind what you say about the war diaries not showing casualties it would seem more likely the soldiers died of wounds. In this case it more would probably that he died somewhere in the medical chain and was originally buried adjacent to a Dressing Station, Casualty Clearing Station or Hospital.

 

After the war for various reasons his grave/grave marker was lost, usually due to shell fire. Depending on the original location he may have been concentrated to another cemetery as an Unknown or remain in the original location as an Unknown.

 

And as Mike says above, knowing if he was KIA or DOW is crucial.

 

Can you give the man's details?

TEW

[Justinth]

The Battalion Ledgers (based on War Office Casualty lists and lists from Army Record Offices) held at the C.W.G.C. Archive may also be of interest:

 

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/graves-registration-commission-directorate-of-graves-registration-enquiries-i-w-g-c-record-glossary/#unique-identifier7

Edited 15 September , 2018 by Justinth

[mancpal]

Thanks for your replies so far which I will follow up. The soldier in question is stated 12/7/16 as KiA, haven’t found trace of any action on this date.

 

Simon

Edited 15 September , 2018 by mancpal

[thetrenchrat22]

On 15/09/2018 at 09:08, mancpal said:

I am wondering if there is a way of finding out if a soldier had been buried in the field and his grave subsequently lost?

 

Who is the man in question, as I intend to look at the other casualties from the same unit and date of death

 

then see, 

 

alan

[Marilyne]

Alan,

 

that's indeed THE question... who is he???

Don't keep us waiting...

 

M.

[mancpal]

I didn’t mention his name as I opened a thread in the soldiers section and didn’t want members 

looking for things I already have.

His name was John Patrick O’hearns, 19446, 13th bttn, KLR.

im looking into him for a friend.

 

Simon

[TEW]

There is a rather large action on the following day, the attack on Bazentin-le-Grand. Battalion diary says to look in brigade dairy (WO95/1426) for details of attack. Brigade dairy gives a 'Task of 13/KLR' dispositions, objectives etc.

 

13/KLR OR casualties for the month are given as 128 Killed, 296 Wounded, 75 Missing.

 

There is the oddity that 19512 Berry of same battalion has records to show death 12/7/1916 but his GRRF shows 1/7/1916. Buried Dantzig Alley. Concentrated from A.2.b.5.1

TEW