Alfred Hopkins - Company Sergt-major WW1

[MBrockway]

We know from the October 1915 Part II Orders about the transfer of C/6235 AH Hopkins that was definitely someone of that name in 18/KRRC.

 

We cannot conclusively prove that this is Hubert Ellis Hopkins serving under his elder brother's name, but I think the majority here are now satisfied this is in all probability the case.

 

Generally in my experience, men enlisting who were worried about past misdemeanours changed their surname not just their forenames.

 

There is no reason why two men with the same name could enlist using their identical names.  In the regimental records they are differentiated by including their Service Numbers.  Even if C/6235 AH Hopkins is genuinely a different AH Hopkins and actually NOT Hubert Ellis, this would not be any reason why Alfred would need to serve under the name Victor.

 

All this IMHO points to the reason he didn't use his real name as being personal choice and covering for his younger brother seems the most likely of these.

 

Even if there is no prior family reason for picking the name Victor, it is obviously a very auspicious choice for a nom de guerre for a man heading of to war.

 

He clearly liked it because he named his son, Denise's father, as Victor Ellis Hopkins.  Soldiers are often superstitious.  Perhaps he felt the name had been lucky for him

 

[Philip coleman]

Perhaps so to finding the name lucky.  STILL trying to track down missing dead child.  SEEMS funny grandad using the family name Ellis from brother Huberts middle name I am almost sure Victor is in grandad family tree somewhere. 

[Stebie9173]

In many cases men would hardly be referred to by forenames. He would probably be referred to as Sgt. Hopkins or just Hopkins by officers, as Sarge by the ranks and a nickname by his mates....

 

I can't remember whether it has been mentioned but 3rd Army may even mean 3rd Division?

 

Steve

Edited 18 September , 2018 by Stebie9173

[MBrockway]

On 17/09/2018 at 11:45, MBrockway said:

<snip>

When Hubert Hopkins was called up into the RNVR Bristol Division on  13 Jun 1917, he was 18 yrs 2 months, so presumably conscripted under the Military Services Act.

<snip>

Move on two summers and Hubert now aged 18 is called up to the RNVR under the routine military conscription system but this time serving under his real name as Z/6169 Hopkins, Hubert Ellis in the RNVR Bristol Division.

Mark

 

 

I was wrong in the presumption that Hubert was conscripted into the RNVR Bristol Division under the Military Service Act.

 

There was no conscription into the Royal Navy under the MSA.

 

Men who served as sailors in the Royal Navy, including the RNVR, all volunteered.  In Hubert's case, by volunteering into the RNVR he avoided conscription into the Army where by 1917 he would have had no choice in regiment nor role.

 

Those men who were conscripted into the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division and served as soldiers were initially conscripted into the Army and then transferred to the Royal Navy to serve as infantry with the RND.

 

Lots of information on recruitment into the RNVR is this currently active topic here ...

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

On 18/09/2018 at 11:15, Madmeg said:

What about the Edward A who was also in the KRRC? I found a medal card for him, could he be the older brother? Would his join up date give any clues?

 

 

Edward, eldest brother of Arthur and Hubert, appears in several of the newspaper reports, but never with any mention of military service, so it looks like he did not join up.  The driver of the stationary engine in a coal pit was a critical, pivotal employee and was almost certainly classified as a Reserved Occupation.

 

Perhaps Denise can advise?

 

Off the board, Wandererpaul and I have been looking into the military experience of the wider family.

 

So far we have ...

1. Arthur Henry 'Harry' HOPKINS - served as C/9048 HOPKINS, Victor, 18/KRRC and 20/KRRC

2. Hubert Ellis HOPKINS - served as (a) C/6235 HOPKINS, A.H. in 18/KRRC, Discharged, Under Age (probably); (b) Z/6169 HOPKINS, Hubert E, RNVR Bristol Division

3. John Frederick WINCHCOMB/WINCHCOMBE, brother of Edward's wife, Elizabeth - 2454, 1st/5th Sherwood Foresters; KiA Hooge, 31 Jul 1915

4. Albert Edward WINCHCOMB, brother of Edward's wife, Elizabeth - 167856, RGA. Enlisted: 07 Jul 1916. Discharged, Sickness, with Silver War Badge: 15 May 1918. Did not serve Overseas.

5. W.T. WINCHCOMB, brother of Edward's wife, Elizabeth - 17805, 9th Sherwood Foresters; KiA, Dardanelles, 09 Aug 1915

     [Update: *probably* 'William']

6. Leslie James WATKINSON, husband of Lettice Hopkins - Trooper, Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry.

 

There is also Edward's wife's father, Serjeant-Major WINCHCOMB, a Crimea veteran with 2/Rifle Brigade, who died approx 1911.

 

Mark

 

 

Edited 20 September , 2018 by MBrockway
#1. AEW's unit & SWB detail added. #2 further info from family added

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi 

As far as our research goes :-

a) John Frederick Winchcombe was shot by a sniper

b) W.T Winchcombe was killed two weeks later 

c) Albert E Winchcombe  returned to Ford's Colliery, ended up an invalid (due to his legs) and went into a nursing home.

A report in the Ripley / Heanor news 18.3.1921 under the headlines of Ripley fighting family Winchcombe's loss. It states that the army was responsible for ruining the life or killing the brothers. Must have been a memorial to them because of the date.

d) Edward (Alfred's eldest brother ) married Elizabeth on 10.11.1905. They had a number of children only one Eve was born in the war years registered July - Sept 1917. So may be Edward did not join up. Also 

If it's any help Leonard Hopkins ( Alfred, Hubert's etc dad) was married twice. He married a Sumner (surname) and his own mother was a Sumner. I think this wife was a cousin. Also Alice Mary Hopkins GD Alfred's wife, her mum and dad were cousins. This might be why there were so many in the forces.

You have been very busy!!!

Denise 

 

[Philip coleman]

HI

Have been doing some research on kings royal rifles 20th battalion (Biritish empire pioneers.)

20th service battalion, kings royal rifle corps were raised in London on the 20th august 1915 by the British Empire League.In Feb 1916 they moved to Wellingborough for final training and  proceeded to France on the 30/03/16 landing at Le Havre. On the 19th May 1916 they joined 3rd division as a Pioneer battalion. In 1916 they took part in the Actions of the Bluff and  St Eloi Craters then moved to the Somme for the Battle of Albert, the Battle of Bazentin helping to capture Longueval, The Battle of Delville Wood and the Battle of Ancre. In 1917 they were at Arras, seeing action at Battles of the Scarpe and the Battle of Arleux. They moved north to the Flanders and were in action during the Battle of the Menin Road and the Battle of Polygon Wood during the 3rd battle of Ypres. Then moved south and were in action at the Battle of Cambrai. In 1918 they were in action on The Somme, in the Battles of the Lys, the Battles of the Hindenburg Line and the Battle of the Selle. After the Armtice 3rd Division advanced into Germany as part of the Occupation Force.

[MBrockway]

3 hours ago, Philip coleman said:

HI

Have been doing some research on kings royal rifles 20th battalion (Biritish empire pioneers.)

20th service battalion, kings royal rifle corps were raised in London on the 20th august 1915 by the British Empire League.In Feb 1916 they moved to Wellingborough for final training and  proceeded to France on the 30/03/16 landing at Le Havre. On the 19th May 1916 they joined 3rd division as a Pioneer battalion. In 1916 they took part in the Actions of the Bluff and  St Eloi Craters then moved to the Somme for the Battle of Albert, the Battle of Bazentin helping to capture Longueval, The Battle of Delville Wood and the Battle of Ancre. In 1917 they were at Arras, seeing action at Battles of the Scarpe and the Battle of Arleux. They moved north to the Flanders and were in action during the Battle of the Menin Road and the Battle of Polygon Wood during the 3rd battle of Ypres. Then moved south and were in action at the Battle of Cambrai. In 1918 they were in action on The Somme, in the Battles of the Lys, the Battles of the Hindenburg Line and the Battle of the Selle. After the Armtice 3rd Division advanced into Germany as part of the Occupation Force.

 

Philip - I've sent something to you and Denise via Denise's e-mail address.

 

All the best!

Mark

 

[Madmeg]

On 19/09/2018 at 20:10, MBrockway said:

 

Edward, eldest brother of Arthur and Hubert, appears in several of the newspaper reports, but never with any mention of military service, so it looks like he did not join up.  The driver of the stationary engine in a coal pit was a critical, pivotal employee and was almost certainly classified as a Reserved Occupation.

 

Perhaps Denise can advise?

 

Off the board, Wandererpaul and I have been looking into the military experience of the wider family.

 

So far we have ...

1. Arthur Henry 'Harry' HOPKINS - served as C/9048 HOPKINS, Victor, 18/KRRC and 20/KRRC

2. Hubert Ellis HOPKINS - served as (a) C/6235 HOPKINS, A.H. in 18/KRRC, Discharged, Under Age (probably); (b) Z/6169 HOPKINS, Hubert E, RNVR Bristol Division

3. John Frederick WINCHCOMB/WINCHCOMBE, brother of Edward's wife, Elizabeth - 2454, 1st/5th Sherwood Foresters; KiA Hooge, 31 Jul 1915

4. Albert Edward WINCHCOMB, brother of Edward's wife, Elizabeth - 167856, RGA. Enlisted: 07 Jul 1916. Discharged, Sickness, with Silver War Badge: 15 May 1918. Did not serve Overseas.

5. W.T. WINCHCOMB, brother of Edward's wife, Elizabeth - 17805, 9th Sherwood Foresters; KiA, Dardanelles, 09 Aug 1915

6. Leslie James WATKINSON, husband of Lettice Hopkins - Trooper, Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry.

 

There is also Edward's wife's father, Serjeant-Major WINCHCOMB, a Crimea veteran with 2/Rifle Brigade, who died approx 1911.

 

Mark

 

On 19/09/2018 at 20:10, MBrockway said:

 

One of AH's sisters married a Winchcombe as well- I'm assuming a brother of Edward's wife. Haven;t got as far as checking first name.

My grandfather was in the Duke of Lancasters yeomanry for a while! Regt was recruited from the Manchester/Preston area from what I can see.

 

[Madmeg]

On 17/09/2018 at 14:15, MBrockway said:

Denise,

By April 1911, your great grandmother had had 10 children, only 8 of whom were then still alive. So your granddad Alfred had lost two siblings in childhood.

 

The eight I have identified so far are:

1. Edward Arthur (1883)
2. Leonard Peter (1885)
3. Lettice Alice (1888)
4. Edith (~1891)
5. Alfred Henry (1892)
6. Lillian Lucy (1897)
7. Hubert Ellis (1899)
8. Annie Elizabeth (1903)

There was an Elijah Hopkins born 1886 and died 1890 in the Congleton area where Leonard and Elizabeth began their married life, but I have no evidence confirming he was their child.

 

Do you know if either of your granddad's lost siblings was called Victor?

 

Mark

 

for completeness (although not strictlty Alfred Henry-)

the tenth child- most likely born c 1895 from the age gap between AH and Lilian L.

Freebmd possibles-  Hannah b Belper 1893 , Elizabeth b Belper 1895 (Grace b 1897 is too close to Lilian to be the same family) however there are no deaths in Belper for these three.

Elizabeth bc 1896 is in the 1901 and 1911 census- except now she is born 1904!- Annie Elizabeth was b 1903 so I'm guessing that Elizabeth 1) was the tenth child- death registery unknown.

Edited 20 September , 2018 by Madmeg
mistake

[wandererpaul]

The child that seems to have been born into the family at some point, and the name is missing, may have never been registered. The parents may have named the child themselves. Neither birth nor death may have been registered though. Not every birth or death was.

Edited 20 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[MBrockway]

On 18/09/2018 at 10:58, MBrockway said:

 

I looked into that too and found five deaths in childhood of a Victor Hopkins in Greater London and one in Devon, but nothing in the Congleton nor Belper RD where the rest of 'our' Hopkins data occurs.

 

I did not ask Denise about these as we've had no suggestion of the family spending time in London and I felt it might be distressing.

 

Uniting elements from Post #139 and elsewhere, our shape for the Hopkins family is ...

 

Father: Leonard HOPKINS (~1861, Rushton, near Leek, Staffs.)

Mother: Elizabeth HOPKINS, nee SUMNER (~1864, Kent Green, Odd Rode, near Congleton, Cheshire)

Children:

1. Edward Arthur (1883)
2. Leonard Peter (1885)
3. Elijah (1886-1890)
4. Lettice Alice (1888)
5. Edith (~1891)
6. Alfred Henry (1892)
7. Lillian Lucy (1897)
8. Hubert Ellis (1899)
9. Annie Elizabeth (1903)

Plus one other as yet unidentified, who died before 1911.

 

Ignoring the Victors outwith our likely localities, for this missing tenth sibling I looked for deaths in childhood/early adulthood in the Congleton and Belper RDs but failed to come up any with reliable candidates.  Of course the BMD index transcriptions do have their flaws and we know a tenth child was born to the marriage so must be in a birth register somewhere.

 

As you worked out higher up, the family moved from the Leek/Congleton area to the parish of Ripley, Derbys. sometime between the births of Lettice and Edith

 

Denise has not disagreed with this family structure, so researching other Alfred Hopkins in other families in Derbyshire is unlikely to make this thread clearer.

 

Mark

 

 

6 hours ago, Madmeg said:

for completeness (although not strictlty Alfred Henry-)

the tenth child- most likely born c 1895 from the age gap between AH and Lilian L.

Freebmd possibles-  Hannah b Belper 1893 , Elizabeth b Belper 1895 (Grace b 1897 is too close to Lilian to be the same family) however there are no deaths in Belper for these three.

Elizabeth bc 1896 is in the 1901 and 1911 census- except now she is born 1904!- Annie Elizabeth was b 1903 so I'm guessing that Elizabeth 1) was the tenth child- death registery unknown.

 

When I did the work the other day, I found the candidates below in the transcribed Birth Register index, but, not finding matching deaths for them anywhere, chose not to publish.

 

The list was based on Elizabeth reaching age 18 yrs, not the marriage, which was in Q4 1882, but I am definitely NOT suggesting thereby that children before the marriage are likely.

 

HOPKINS,

 -, William; Bn: Q2 1882; Congleton RD.
 -, John Thomas; Bn: Q1 1884. Congleton RD.
 -, William; Bn: Q3 1886. Congleton RD.
 -, Amy Elizabeth; Bn: Q2 1887. Congleton RD.
 -, Pamela; Bn: Q4 1889. Congleton RD.
 -, Charles; Bn: Q2 1890. Congleton RD.
 -, Winifred; Bn: Q4 1891. Congleton RD.
 -, Hannah; Bn: Q3 1893, Belper RD.
 -, Elizabeth; Bn: Q2 1895, Belper RD.
 -, Grace; Bn: Q4 1897, Belper RD.
 -, Benjamin Robert; Bn: Q4 1909, Belper RD.

        [UPDATE: this is 3rd child of Edward Arthur HOPKINS (Alfred's eldest brother) & Elizabeth Annie WINCHCOMB]

 

It may not be entirely safe to rule out based on 9-12 months gaps with the confirmed family members as the missing tenth child could be one of twins.

 

I did this work from the transcribed indexes, not the primary documents.

 

Edited 20 September , 2018 by MBrockway
Additional information received from Denise's family

[MBrockway]

On 19/09/2018 at 09:10, MBrockway said:

 

Edward, eldest brother of Arthur and Hubert, appears in several of the newspaper reports, but never with any mention of military service, so it looks like he did not join up.  The driver of the stationary engine in a coal pit was a critical, pivotal employee and was almost certainly classified as a Reserved Occupation.

 

Perhaps Denise can advise?

 

Off the board, Wandererpaul and I have been looking into the military experience of the wider family.

 

So far we have ...

1. Arthur Henry 'Harry' HOPKINS - served as C/9048 HOPKINS, Victor, 18/KRRC and 20/KRRC

2. Hubert Ellis HOPKINS - served as (a) C/6235 HOPKINS, A.H. in 18/KRRC, Discharged, Under Age (probably); (b) Z/6169 HOPKINS, Hubert E, RNVR Bristol Division

3. John Frederick WINCHCOMB/WINCHCOMBE, brother of Edward's wife, Elizabeth - 2454, 1st/5th Sherwood Foresters; KiA Hooge, 31 Jul 1915

4. Albert Edward WINCHCOMB, brother of Edward's wife, Elizabeth - 167856, RGA. Enlisted: 07 Jul 1916. Discharged, Sickness, with Silver War Badge: 15 May 1918. Did not serve Overseas.

5. W.T. WINCHCOMB, brother of Edward's wife, Elizabeth - 17805, 9th Sherwood Foresters; KiA, Dardanelles, 09 Aug 1915

     [Update: *probably* 'William']

6. Leslie James WATKINSON, husband of Lettice Hopkins - Trooper, Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry.

 

There is also Edward's wife's father, Serjeant-Major WINCHCOMB, a Crimea veteran with 2/Rifle Brigade, who died approx 1911.

 

Mark

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Madmeg said:

One of AH's sisters married a Winchcombe as well- I'm assuming a brother of Edward's wife. Haven;t got as far as checking first name.

 

My grandfather was in the Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry for a while! Regt was recruited from the Manchester/Preston area from what I can see.

 

 

 

Edith E HOPKINS married Albert Edward WINCHCOMB in Q2 1913.  Albert enlisted into the Royal Garrison Artillery in Jul 1916, but had serious medical problems leading to his eventual discharge with a Silver War Badge.  He did not serve Overseas.

 

Edith Hopkins' birth does not appear in the transcribed index of the Birth Registers for Congleton RD or Belper RD, but luckily she is recorded in the household in the censuses.

Edited 20 September , 2018 by MBrockway
Aditional info from family included

[Philip coleman]

17 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

Philip - I've sent something to you and Denise via Denise's e-mail address.

 

All the best!

Mark

 

Thank you!,

.

[MBrockway]

On 19/09/2018 at 09:10, MBrockway said:

There is also Edward's wife's father, Serjeant-Major WINCHCOMB, a Crimea veteran with 2/Rifle Brigade, who died approx 1911.

 

Mark

 

With assistance from a well-known Rifle Brigade expert , I can now add that this was 3471 James WINCHCOMBE (also in the documentation as 'Winchone'), of Captain Inglis's Company, 2nd Battalion, The Rifle Brigade.

 

He went out as a Corporal and was promoted to Serjeant.

 

He was slightly wounded at the GREAT REDAN at Sebastapol on 08 Sep 1855.  He was awarded the Crimea Medal with the Alma, Inkerman and Sebastopol clasps.

 

He completed his service with rank Serjeant-Major.

 

So connections to the great Rifles regiments in the wider Hopkins/Winchcomb family go right back to at least the 1850's.

 

Mark

 

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi Mark

I have just sent some info on the family to your email address.

Denise

[MBrockway]

41 minutes ago, Denise Hopkins said:

Hi Mark

I have just sent some info on the family to your email address.

Denise

Received - I'll update the relevant posts above to incorporate it.

[MBrockway]

 

Pals,

This is slightly off topic, but receiving it made my day and I thought I'd share it with everyone. 

 

I got this after sending Denise the 20/KRRC battalion history ["the book" referred to] off the board ...

 

Quote

Hi Mark

I can't wait to get home tonight and start the book. Yes I shall share it with my sister who used her husband's email address and also my eldest cousin who provided the photos of grandad and copies of the newspapers.

I teach at a local school and have spoken to the Head about the Centenary Armistice Day.  Hopefully, a young teacher in the History Dept is taking it on and we are going to ask staff about their family members in the war.  So all this info about grandad's family will be put to good use.

I feel that I've got an extended family with everyone who has made posts - you have been very patient with our lack of understanding of military terms etc.

Without all of you  and your wealth of knowledge, commitment and tireless effort we would never have known about grandad and Hubert's 'plot' and the extended family. 

Please share with the other 'posters'.

Denise

 

It's not only the frank appreciation of our efforts that warms, but the thought that what we've done here will help the whole of a school local to these men understand their experiences and remember them.

 

 

I think that's ruddy marvellous!

 

Mark

 

[Madmeg]

Some issues with internet here-sorry if this duplicates info on my previous post which I now can't see

Not Alfred henry but possible tenth child-

From freeBMD

1893 Hannah b belper, 1895 Elizabeth b Belper,, 1897 (too close to Lilian to be thos family ) Grace.

Can't see deaths registered for any of these children. 
posted in error that I found Elizabeth with family in 1901 census but mistaken, Annie Elizabeth shown as Elizabeth in 1911.

There are possibles for Grace and hannah in 1911 and 1901 census but nothing as likely for Elzabeth.

So suggest Elizabeth b 1895 as a posible tenth child for this family? No victor

[Madmeg]

What is it with these Hopkins chaps? I got interested in 4692 and have been doing some follow up to see if I could find out more about him- and I turn up yet ANOTHER Hopkins CSM being awarded the DCM ! - fortunately for the thread  (and my personal sanity) this one is a C Hopkins (probably Charles) and he was in the 2nd Glosters (5794) . :-)

The school doing a follow up is a great idea. A couple of years ago my daughter's school did a project on ANZACs which culminated in the girls creating crosses with the names of the men they had researched being displayed in the school grounds.

[MBrockway]

11 hours ago, Madmeg said:

What is it with these Hopkins chaps? I got interested in 4692 and have been doing some follow up to see if I could find out more about him- and I turn up yet ANOTHER Hopkins CSM being awarded the DCM ! - fortunately for the thread  (and my personal sanity) this one is a C Hopkins (probably Charles) and he was in the 2nd Glosters (5794) . :-)

 

 

I don't think Hopkins is a rare name.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

I don't think Hopkins is a rare name.

 

Indeed, common in South Wales, and West Midlands:

http://named.publicprofiler.org/

[MBrockway]

15 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Some issues with internet here-sorry if this duplicates info on my previous post which I now can't see

Not Alfred henry but possible tenth child-

From freeBMD

1893 Hannah b belper, 1895 Elizabeth b Belper,, 1897 (too close to Lilian to be thos family ) Grace.

Can't see deaths registered for any of these children. 
posted in error that I found Elizabeth with family in 1901 census but mistaken, Annie Elizabeth shown as Elizabeth in 1911.

There are possibles for Grace and hannah in 1911 and 1901 census but nothing as likely for Elzabeth.

So suggest Elizabeth b 1895 as a posible tenth child for this family? No victor

 

See my Post #162 higher up.

[MBrockway]

On 20/09/2018 at 18:06, MBrockway said:

 

With assistance from a well-known Rifle Brigade expert , I can now add that this was 3471 James WINCHCOMBE (also in the documentation as 'Winchone'), of Captain Inglis's Company, 2nd Battalion, The Rifle Brigade.

 

He went out as a Corporal and was promoted to Serjeant.

 

He was slightly wounded at the GREAT REDAN at Sebastapol on 08 Sep 1855.  He was awarded the Crimea Medal with the Alma, Inkerman and Sebastopol clasps.

 

He completed his service with rank Serjeant-Major.

 

So connections to the great Rifles regiments in the wider Hopkins/Winchcomb family go right back to at least the 1850's.

 

Mark

 

 

More on James WINCHCOMB, father of the Winchcomb brothers who served in the Great War and father-in-law to two of the Hopkins family.

 

Born: ~1843 at Sparsholt, near Wantage, Berkshire (now in Oxfordshire)

21 Years Service with 2nd Battalion, The Rifle Brigade

Enlisted: Sep 1852

Corporal: ~Mar 1855

Serjeant: ~Sep 1855

Serjeant-Major: Jan 1873

Discharged, time expired: Sep 1873

 

Served 2ys 10 months in the Crimea (see above); 10 years 4 months in India.

 

He completed his service attached to the North Cork Militia in Mallow, County Cork, who were affiliated to the [Edit: King's Royal Rifle Corps, not the Rifle Brigade. (What a howler, wait till our RB expert spots this! ]) Almost certainly as the RSM, but I have yet to confirm this.

 

His character on discharge was Very Good and he had five Good Conduct chevrons.

 

He died at Derby Royal Infirmary on 18 Jul 1908.

 

A fine Old Rifleman.

Edited 21 September , 2018 by MBrockway

[Stebie9173]

I assume you have probably seen it, but James Winchcomb's obituary was in the "Ripley and Heanor News and Ilkeston Division Free Press" of Friday 24 July 1908.

 

Steve.