Alfred Hopkins - Company Sergt-major WW1

[Philip coleman]

Hi I'm at my sister's. What about GD signs up under V Hopkins to avoid 'trouble', younger brother Hubert signs up using GD 's name as he is under age and knows GD has not used his own name. Would that account for not having similar service numbers? Does this make sense?

[IPT]

There's an article in the Ripley and Heanor News of 17th January 1919, (FMP subscription required), which I think may clarify exactly which brother was in the Navy - https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/british-newspapers?date=1919-01-17&date_offsetdate=1919-01-17&newspaper=ripley and heanor news and ilkeston division free press&keywords="hopkins"

[wandererpaul]

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Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[wandererpaul]

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Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[wandererpaul]

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Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Philip coleman said:

Hi I'm at my sister's. What about GD signs up under V Hopkins to avoid 'trouble', younger brother Hubert signs up using GD 's name as he is under age and knows GD has not used his own name. Would that account for not having similar service numbers? Does this make sense?

 

Isn't that exactly what I said here? - see below 

 

It certainly was supposed to be - heh heh

 

3 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Thanks to Madmeg and Paul we had a glimpse back in Post #79 of C/6235 Rfn A H Hopkins of 18/KRRC, but who has rather faded away again since.

 

 

These 18/KRRC Depot Coys Part 2 Orders relate to a transfer on 22 Oct 1915 of C/6235 Hopkins, A.H. from 'A' Company in the main 18/KRRC battalion (who were in Blighty at Witley) back to the battalion's depot companies who were still at Gidea Park.  These transfers during the K3 training phase were most likely due to sickness or injury, but sometimes they indicate there were concerns whether a recruit was under age, of marginal fitness, or was not likely to make an efficient soldier.

 

In Oct 1915 Hubert Ellis Hopkins would have been 16 years old.

 

In approx June 1915 when the newspaper reports state Alfred Henry Hopkins enlisted with the KRRC, Hubert would have been 16 and Alfred 22 yrs.

 

When Hubert Hopkins was called up into the RNVR Bristol Division on  13 Jun 1917, he was 18 yrs 2 months, so presumably conscripted under the Military Services Act.

 

How about if Alfred and Hubert both joined up together in June 1915 during one of the 18/KRRC recruiting campaigns in Derbyshire?

 

With Hubert two years under age, perhaps they decided that Hubert should enlist under his elder brother's name and date of birth as C/6235 Hopkins, A.H. while Alfred enlisted under the name Victor (which name does seem to have important resonances within the family) as C/9048 Hopkins, V?

 

Between June and October 1915, the battalion rumbled that Hubert (aka C/6235 "Alfred H" Hopkins) was under age and transferred hi back to the depot companies where he was eventually discharged.

 

Move on two summers and Hubert now aged 18 is called up to the RNVR under the routine military conscription system but this time serving under his real name as Z/6169 Hopkins, Hubert Ellis in the RNVR Bristol Division.

 

 

This certainly seems a neat solution to resolve our conundrum ....

 

 ... but there is at least one flaw:  if they enlisted together into 18/KRRC why are their KRRC service numbers not closer together?

 

Furthermore in the standard KRRC service number prefix schema, C/6235 is in the 18/KRRC range, but C/9048 is in the 20/KRRC range and would actually suggest one of the first 50 to volunteer for the new battalion when it was raised in summer 1915 

 

All the same, the KRRC is full of similar anomalies and this speculative hypothesis is at least food for thought!

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

If there was another brother between Edward and Alfred who had died in childhood, perhaps called Victor, then perhaps Alfred used Victor's name and dates.

 

The name Victor is clearly very meaningful to the family - it re-appears again in your father's name.  Do you know of any Victors in Lionel's generation, or the generation before?

 

My Scottish family have a complex system of carrying names forward through the generations.

 

 

Mark

Edited 17 September , 2018 by MBrockway

[MaxD]

OK, can't help myself.  Despite Wandererpaul's excitement above I can't work out which Hopkins is Denise's Grandad that opened the debate all those years ago!  

 

Could someone please just give his name rank number and regiment without going over the reasons why it is him?

 

Max

 

PS  Just to note there is still no service record m'lud.

 

 

[Stebie9173]

Denise's grandad is Alfred Henry Hopkins, known as Harry, who served as C/9048 Sergeant Victor Hopkins.

 

 

Incidentally - that is Victory on Hubert's Cap Ribbon - his "ship" (a land training base known as a stone-frigate) not his name!

 

 

Steve.

Edited 17 September , 2018 by Stebie9173

[MaxD]

Thank you.

 

Max

[wandererpaul]

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Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[MaxD]

Absolutely no intention to be rude, if it seems that way then I apologise for clumsy wording.

 

Max

[Stebie9173]

I have done a summary of the bits and pieces we have put together. Paul's posts of his newspaper articles have been deleted so I have done some from memory and reconstructed some of the articles from the index of the newspaper library:

 

Jul 1915 - Approximate date of enlistment per report of wounding from June 1917 - "Enlisted nearly two years ago"

Oct 1915 - Allocated number C/9048 as "Victor Hopkins" - From service records of men with similar numbers.

Oct 1915 - Posted to 20th Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps (British Empire League Pioneers), Divisional Pioneers of 3rd Division

??? 1916 - Transferred to 18th Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps (Arts and Crafts), 122nd Brigade, 41st Division - Could have been any time from October 1915 to March 1916 when 20th K.R.R.C. went overseas.

Mar 1916 - 20th Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps embarks to the Western Front on 30-3-1916

May 1916 - 18th Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps embarks to the Western Front on 3-5-1916

June 1916 - Approximate date of embarkation overseas per report of wounding from June 1918 - By no means an accurate method of calculation but is reasonably close to 18th K.R.R.C.'s initial embarkation. 

May 1917 - Wounded in shoulder and chest and in hospital at Guildford. A Sergeant at that time. (per Ripley & Heanor News of Friday 1 June 1917)

Nov 1917 - 41st Division moves to Italy - Does Sgt. Hopkins "miss the boat" while to still recovering from his wounds? Return to the UK often meant a change of battalion on return to the front.

??? 1918 - Return to France, and possibly posting to 20th K.R.R.C.

Jun 1918 - Wounded and in hospital in France (per Ripley & Heanor News of Friday 28 June 1918) - More likely to have stayed with old battalion if he recovered in France.

Jul 1918 - On Official Casualty List 9-7-1918 as Wounded - "Hopkins 9046 Sjt. V. (Ripley)"

Mid 1918 - Appears on Absent Voters as "9048 Sgt. Alfred Henry Hopkins, 20th King's Royal Rifle Corps"

Sep 1918 - Married on 14-9-1918 (a Sergeant at that time)

Jan 1919 - Report of promotion to Company Sergeant Major in Ripley & Heanor News of Friday 24 January 1919

??? 1919 - Picture as Company Sergeant Major and three overseas service chevrons (say one awarded at beginning of overseas service in 1916, one awarded 1917 and one award 1918)

 

 

Ripley & Heanor News of Friday 1 June 1917

 

MAREHAY SERGEANT AMONGST THE WOUNDED. Official information was received last weekend by Mr. and Mrs. Leonard Hopkins, Marehay, that their son Harry had been wounded, and a short but cheerful note from the brave fellow himself conveyed the news that he was wounded in the shoulder and chest and was in hospital at Guildford, Surrey. was delighted to be in Blighty again, but was progressing favourably, and there was no need bother about him. This has been the attitude ho has adopted all along in his training, and no doubt his cheery manner and great interest in his work has not only gained for him many friends, but helped him to the promotion and rank which now holds. Twice in the field ho has been recommended by his commanding officer for commission, but prefers to remain in the sergeants’ mess. Hopkins, who in civil life worked at Fords Colliery, enlisted nearly two years ago, and had been in France about a year. (Picture) SERGT. A. H. HOPKINS (Marehay), King’s Royal Rifles.

 

Ripley & Heanor News of Friday 28 June 1918

 

MAREHAY SERGEANT WOUNDED SECOND TIME. Mr. and Mrs. Leonard Hopkins of Marehay, have this week received a letter from the War Office, that their son, Sergt. A. H. Hopkins, has been wounded and going on well. Hopkins, who enlisted from Messrs, Fords Pit in 1915, had previously been wounded the shoulder and chest, and then got over Blighty and is in hospital in France going on well...... been in France altogether about two years.

 

 

Ripley & Heanor News of Friday 24 January 1919

 

MAREHAY SOLDIER’S PROMOTION Mr. and Mrs. Leonard Hopkins, Ivy House, Marehay. have no fewer than 21 relatives and nephews — who have or are still serving with the Colours. One son. Harry, has been promoted to company Sergeant Major before proceeding with the 11th Division as part of the army of occupation to the Rhine. He was with the Third Army which did so much to counter the final German offensive and holds a certificate that effect. One his letters home enclosed ................. plucked from the garden of a French homestead  in which fewer than twelve civilians lay .............. whole family blotted out existence by the retreating Germans. Although wounded in the retreat the gallant Sergeant-Major continued on duty until ordered fall out his superiors.

 

 

Anything I need to add?

 

Steve.

Edited 17 September , 2018 by Stebie9173

[Philip coleman]

Hi Elijah or Elizah was one of GD 's siblings so my cousin was told. We didn't know about another sibling. As for Victor no one in the family knows why GD used his name to enlist. I may have got something wrong here. Are we now saying that Hubert signed up first using GD 's name as GD was in the mine  - reserved occupation and Hubert was under age ? So when GD signed up presumably knowing Hubert had been under age signed up as Victor Hopkins. When Hubert was rumbled he got sent home and GD just continued under Victor. 

Denise

[Philip coleman]

You are probably right about not going to Italy as my cousin states GD only ever talked about France no where else.

Denise

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Stebie9173 said:

Oct 1915 - Allocated number C/9048 as "Victor Hopkins" - From service records of men with similar numbers.

Oct 1915 - Posted to 20th Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps (British Empire League Pioneers), Divisional Pioneers of 3rd Division

 

Steve.

 

Some useful notes on the early days of 20/KRRC, recruitment rates and the localities from which they were drawn.  They entirely support Steve's observations from the service records.  The battalion's service number range began at C/9000 ...

 

 

 

Denise - re line 5, the KRRC was also known as the 60th.

 

I have some similar material about 18/KRRC in my library, which I'll précis once I get back home later in the week.

 

Mark

 

 

Edited 17 September , 2018 by MBrockway

[Stebie9173]

I've had a quick look at the men on the July 1918 Casualty List to confirm which battalion the men were with at the time. 4 of the 6 men have had some service with 20th Battalion. C/9381 Oswald Brooks was awarded the Military Medal around that time with 20th Battalion. Circumstantial evidence would suggest that Sgt. Hopkins was with 20th Battalion rather than 18th Battalion at that time.

 

C/9320 Pte. William H Baldwin (Reading) - 20th Battalion

C/9381 Pte. Oswald Brooks (Wandsworth) - 20th Battalion; Awarded the M.M. with 20th Bn. around the time of his wounding, London Gazette 7-2-1919

C/9048 Sgt. Victor Hopkins (Ripley) - 18th or 20th Battalion

R/21967 Cpl. Joseph Le Bean (Chelsea, S.W.) - 2nd or 10th Battalion

C/9913 L/Cpl. Frank Richens (Calne) - 20th or 7th Bn.

44177 Sidney William Robert Wiggins (East Dulwich, S.E.) - 11th Bn. (Gassed 1.6.18), later discharged from 5th Reserve Bn. in 1919

 

I tried searching Ancestry for the war diaries of 20th K.R.R.C. I eventually found them under WO 95/1405 mis-described as 1/9th Durham Light Infantry. To be fair to Ancestry they are filed the same on the National Archives catalogue/website and probably have been for decades!

 

 

Steve.

 

 

Edited 17 September , 2018 by Stebie9173

[MaxD]

There was mention at the start of the man having a certificate relating to his service during the final offensive which I enquired about earlier.

 

Does this certificate still exist and if so are there details - name/regiment/battalion etc??

 

Max

 

 

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

15 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Does this certificate still exist and if so are there details - name/regiment/battalion etc??

 

Max

 

I think the evidence for it was a mention in one of the press cuttings that have since been taken down. They also erroneously said Alfred was in 11 Corps rather than II Corps.

[MBrockway]

39 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

I think the evidence for it was a mention in one of the press cuttings that have since been taken down. They also erroneously said Alfred was in 11 Corps rather than II Corps.

 

Quite right Dai - both these points are in the 1919 report of Hopkins' CSM promotion - see Steve's transcript in #137, repeated here ...

 

Quote

Ripley & Heanor News of Friday 24 January 1919

 

MAREHAY SOLDIER’S PROMOTION Mr. and Mrs. Leonard Hopkins, Ivy House, Marehay. have no fewer than 21 relatives and nephews — who have or are still serving with the Colours. One son. Harry, has been promoted to company Sergeant Major before proceeding with the 11th Division as part of the army of occupation to the Rhine. He was with the Third Army which did so much to counter the final German offensive and holds a certificate that effect. One his letters home enclosed ................. plucked from the garden of a French homestead  in which fewer than twelve civilians lay .............. whole family blotted out existence by the retreating Germans. Although wounded in the retreat the gallant Sergeant-Major continued on duty until ordered fall out his superiors.

 

 

As you say, the only evidence for the certificate was in this press cutting and I fear the certificate itself has long been lost.

 

I interpreted it as a unit recognition Certificate awarded to Hopkins for his part in defending the Kaiserschlacht offensives in Spring 1918.

 

Unfortunately the "Third Army" reference does not help us identify Hopkins' battalion - both 18/KRRC and 20/KRRC were in Third Army on 21 March 1918.

 

I did look into the angle of "the final German offensive" referring to the second, Operation Georgette, phase of the Kaiserschlacht offensives in April.  Again both battalions were involved here and anyway not as part of Third Army - 20/KRRC were transferred to First Army on 12 Apr 1918 and 18/KRRC to Second Army a day later.

 

The other likely newspaper error you mention was that Hopkins was going out to the Rhineland with 11th Division as part of the Army of Occupation.

 

This does not stack up because ...

1. There were never any KRRC units in 11th Division
2. 11th Division stayed in France & Flanders after the Armistice and were never part of the BAOR
3. When the BAOR was formally set up, 18/KRRC and 20/KRRC were both in the new Light Division in II Corps
4. The name II Corps for 11th Division might be an easy (an typical) mistake for a newspaper.

 

Mark

 

Edited 18 September , 2018 by MBrockway

[Madmeg]

On 17/09/2018 at 10:14, Denise Hopkins said:

HUBERT not Herbert was  GD'S baby brother. Victor probably a relative as my dad's first name is Victor.

Also Eliis is my da's middle name.

I think I found a Victor somewhere. Can;t see him now. A number of Herberts including some in Derbyshire- and I just found another Alfred H - b 1892 in Cheltenham living in Derbyshire 1901 with parents John and Annie- just to be aware of for the confusion potential.

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi

I thought i'd read that Hubert using GD's name- Alfred H Hopkins had signed up on the 13.6.15 and discharged on the 22.10.15 as being under age  and GD signing up between Sept - Nov 1915 under Victor Hopkins. That's why I thought it might account for the difference in the service numbers of C6235 and C9048. Grandparents may have had him sent home on providing the proof of Hubert's birth and GD continued as Victor. I suppose grandparents would notify the Ripley and Heanor News with regard to GD but using his real name of Alfred.

I think Wanderpaul  had made the connections with dates.

Denise

[MBrockway]

3 hours ago, Madmeg said:

I think I found a Victor somewhere. Can;t see him now. A number of Herberts including some in Derbyshire- and I just found another Alfred H - b 1892 in Cheltenham living in Derbyshire 1901 with parents John and Annie- just to be aware of for the confusion potential.

 

I looked into that too and found five deaths in childhood of a Victor Hopkins in Greater London and one in Devon, but nothing in the Congleton nor Belper RD where the rest of 'our' Hopkins data occurs.

 

I did not ask Denise about these as we've had no suggestion of the family spending time in London and I felt it might be distressing.

 

Uniting elements from Post #139 and elsewhere, our shape for the Hopkins family is ...

 

Father: Leonard HOPKINS (~1861, Rushton, near Leek, Staffs.)

Mother: Elizabeth HOPKINS, nee SUMNER (~1864, Kent Green, Odd Rode, near Congleton, Cheshire)

Children:

1. Edward Arthur (1883)
2. Leonard Peter (1885)
3. Elijah (1886-1890)
4. Lettice Alice (1888)
5. Edith (~1891)
6. Alfred Henry (1892)
7. Lillian Lucy (1897)
8. Hubert Ellis (1899)
9. Annie Elizabeth (1903)

Plus one other as yet unidentified, who died before 1911.

 

Ignoring the Victors outwith our likely localities, for this missing tenth sibling I looked for deaths in childhood/early adulthood in the Congleton and Belper RDs but failed to come up any with reliable candidates.  Of course the BMD index transcriptions do have their flaws and we know a tenth child was born to the marriage so must be in a birth register somewhere.

 

As you worked out higher up, the family moved from the Leek/Congleton area to the parish of Ripley, Derbys. sometime between the births of Lettice and Edith

 

Denise has not disagreed with this family structure, so researching other Alfred Hopkins in other families in Derbyshire is unlikely to make this thread clearer.

 

Mark

 

Edited 18 September , 2018 by MBrockway
Typo - Lionel for Leonard in GGF name. Corrected.

[Madmeg]

I've been off the thread for a few days and haven;t had time to catch up yet- so I've missed the reference to a tenth child. 

The AH born in 1892 in Cheltenham but living in Derbyshire is mentioned by me as he might have to be eliminated at some stage.

There are obviously several families- I haven;t chased up relationships as yet- if they had 21 relations in uniform it was obviously a big family and I've found with my own lot that often researching the outliers will get you closer to the ones you want. 

Why would he pick Victor as a name? It would be difficult to remember to answer to it I would have thought!

What about the Edward A who was also in the KRRC? I found a medal card for him, could he be the older brother? Would his join up date give any clues?

 

[MBrockway]

7 minutes ago, Denise Hopkins said:

Hi

I thought i'd read that Hubert using GD's name- Alfred H Hopkins had signed up on the 13.6.15 and discharged on the 22.10.15 as being under age  and GD signing up between Sept - Nov 1915 under Victor Hopkins. That's why I thought it might account for the difference in the service numbers of C6235 and C9048. Grandparents may have had him sent home on providing the proof of Hubert's birth and GD continued as Victor. I suppose grandparents would notify the Ripley and Heanor News with regard to GD but using his real name of Alfred.

I think Wanderpaul  had made the connections with dates.

Denise

 

Certainly the KRRC service number of C/9048 used by Alfred serving under the name Victor would have been issued in Sep-Oct 1915 and NO EARLIER.

 

The newspaper articles all refer to Alfred under his real name Alfred (or Harry) even though he was serving under the name Victor. 

 

The article on 01 Jun 1917 says ...

Quote

Ripley & Heanor News of Friday 1 June 1917

 

MAREHAY SERGEANT AMONGST THE WOUNDED. Official information was received last weekend by Mr. and Mrs. Leonard Hopkins, Marehay, that their son Harry had been wounded, <snip> Hopkins, who in civil life worked at Fords Colliery, enlisted nearly two years ago, and had been in France about a year. (Picture) SERGT. A. H. HOPKINS (Marehay), King’s Royal Rifles.

 

That suggests Alfred (as Victor) enlisted shortly after June 1915 and went out in about June 1916, but that doesn't sit well with Victor's C/9048 service number which cannot be earlier than late Sep 1915.

 

So either

1. Alfred/Victor enlisted in Sep/Oct 1915 and the newspaper is making 1 year 8 months into "nearly two years"; or
2. Alfred/Victor enlisted in Jun/Jul 1915 together with Hubert (as Alfred) with an earlier service number, which was then changed to C/9048 in Sep/Oct 1915

My money's on #1 as it would be very unusual for the KRRC to issue a new number if a man changed battalions within the regiment

 

 

 

Hubert, serving under Alfred's name as C/6235 Hopkins, Rfn AH, was not actually discharged on the 22 Oct 1915.  He was transferred from the 18th battalion to the battalion's depot companies.  Think of this a bit like being taken off the pitch and put on the substitutes' bench.  There is no hard evidence when he was actually discharged, except that (1) we know C/6235 Hopkins, AH, never went Overseas; and (2) Hubert Ellis Hopkins was back at home in 1917 when he was called up to the Royal Navy RNVR.

 

Also I should stress we have no solid documentary evidence that Hubert was this C/6235 Hopkins, AH, nor that C/6235 was discharged due to being under age.  We have pieced this together by interpreting the clues we've found.

 

I'm confident we've cracked it though, with only some minor frayed edges that it would be nice to tidy, but which may just not be possible.

 

I've been looking through my KRRC photo archive trying to spot Alfred in shots of 18/ and 20/KRRC - no luck so far, but if I find a likely face, I'll let you know.

 

Mark

 

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi

I've scrolled through the Ripley and Heanor newspapers for 1915 to see if GD was mentioned for being `naughty' in an attempt to decipher why he would enlist under Victor apart from the possible earlier connection to Hubert enlisting underage. Nothing there that I could see. Grandma's maiden name was Purdy.

Don't worry about my family getting upset about anything - tough as `old boots'. 

It's got all his grandchildren's interest and even the generation below so well done and thank-you. We would never have found  any of this out without the input from all of you.

P.S. My cousin is trying to find out about the 10th child to see if there is any connection with Victor.

Denise