Alfred Hopkins - Company Sergt-major WW1

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi Mark I was doing some research earlier whilst you was having your birthday bash - hope you had a good one.Do you think he was a part of the the 18TH KRRC batallion - Arts/Crafts /?part of the 

[wandererpaul]

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Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[clk]

Hi,

 

I've been following this thread, but like Max I'm a bit snow blind about who has been ruled potentially in, and who has been ruled out.

 

3 hours ago, MBrockway said:

...All consistent with a KRRC serjeant who went out any time between 15 Sep 1915 to 13 Sep 1916 (ignoring any time excluded by the chevron rules). 

 

'Our' Alfred Hopkins is reported to have gone out in approx June 1915...

 

If he did go out with the KRRC in June 1915, would he appear on their 14/15 Star medal roll? On Ancestry, searching the roll (using just the search terms of surname = 'Hopkins'; and keyword = 'Royal Rifle Corps' the only A Hopkins (there weren't any A*** [full given name] Hopkins) results were:

 

 

Cross referencing to the MICs R9061 was called Alexander, and R549 Arthur. So both can be ruled out. 

 

That would seem to suggest either that

• Ancestry haven't transcribed the roll correctly or perhaps in full, including perhaps a mis-spelling of his surname
• If he was entitled to the 14/15 Star it was issued from another regiments roll*
• Contrary to the other reports, he didn't arrive in theatre until after 1915

*possibly because it was either issued incorrectly (I thought that it should be issued from the roll of his qualifying unit), or because he was entitled to it by virtue of being with another regiment when he qualified for it. If the latter were to be the case (then subject to caveats, including that he had no second given name) he should be one of these men

 

 

 

An hour in the MICs should give the actual given names of the 'A' Hopkins, and should also show if any of the men had subsequent service with the KRRC, and held the rank of CSM.

 

Has anyone checked to see if there is a surviving Absent Voter List? As another long shot, are there any surviving records (such as a notebook) of his 'flock' that the vicar of his local church may have kept?

 

Regards

Chris

 

[Stebie9173]

Found him..... I think....

 

I suppose you want to know...

 

 

Steve..

 

[MBrockway]

80% confident this is blemish and/or crease ...

 

and NOT this ...

 

(Sorry, this example is from 1954, couldn't find a Great War one quickly!)

2 minutes ago, Stebie9173 said:

Found him..... I think....

 

I suppose you want to know...

 

 

Steve..

 

 

Fig roll waiting for you behind the bar

[Stebie9173]

The Derbyshire Absent Voters List is online in a non-searchable format. It is here:

 

http://calmview.derbyshire.gov.uk/calmview/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=ER%2fILK%2f1918%2fA&pos=2

 

The Hopkins of Warmwell's Lane Marehay are on page 6 of 9 of the final PDF:

 

http://calmview.derbyshire.gov.uk/calmview/GetDocument.ashx?db=Catalog&fname=Electoral+Register+Ilkeston+1918+Absent+Voters+p100-108.pdf

 

Alfred Henry Hopkins is shown as 6169 of The Royal Naval Division! BUT also there is Herbert Ellis Hopkins - Sergeant 9048 of the 20th KRRC. I get the feeling the details of these two have been transposed.

 

It appears that Alfred Henry Hopkins is the "Victor" Hopkins I mentioned above!

 

 

Steve.

 

Edited 16 September , 2018 by Stebie9173
Corrected number for RND

[wandererpaul]

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Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[Denise Hopkins]

HUBERT not Herbert was  GD'S baby brother. Victor probably a relative as my dad's first name is Victor.

Also Eliis is my da's middle name.

[Denise Hopkins]

Other brother Peter but I don't think he was in the war - worked on the canals.

[MBrockway]

I like Victor (and have since you first spotted him Steve)

 

He went out as a Serjeant with 18/KRRC, who definitely recruited in Derbyshire, and was transferred before the end of the war to 20/KRRC, who were a pioneer battalion with a lot of miners, ending the war as a serjeant with them.

 

This has only grown more attractive after finding pioneers in Denise's photo.

 

Victor's BWM and VM roll ...

 

 

 

 

[wandererpaul]

.

 

 

Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[Stebie9173]

Hubert Ellis Hopkins was numbered Z/6169 in the R.N.D.

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7669051

 

 

This does suggest to me that the AVL entries have got Hubert's details for Alfred Henry and vice-versa. And that Alfred Henry Hopkins served as Victor Hopkins.

 

 

Steve.

[MBrockway]

8 minutes ago, wandererpaul said:

I did think, is he the right brother? As there was Edward, Alfred and Herbert.

 

good spot.

 

How has Herbert Ellis become “Victor”?!

 

brilliant piece of detective work. 👍

 

My own grandfather's correct name was William John Brockway, but he chose to go by just John Brockway in all his military records and was known as Jack anyway!

[wandererpaul]

.

 

Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[MBrockway]

4 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

I like Victor (and have since you first spotted him Steve)

 

He went out as a Serjeant with 18/KRRC, who definitely recruited in Derbyshire, and was transferred before the end of the war to 20/KRRC, who were a pioneer battalion with a lot of miners, ending the war as a serjeant with them.

 

This has only grown more attractive after finding pioneers in Denise's photo.

 

Victor's BWM and VM roll ...

 

 

 

 

Also 18/KRRC and 20/KRRC were both part of the BAOR Light Division in the Rhineland after March 1919, with the 20/KRRC converted back to standard infantry.

 

They were both in II Corps, which is why I think the newspaper report about 11th Division is probably an error for II Corps.

 

That said, a man who was a miner in civvy street would have been a high priority demobilization man earmarked for a swift return to Blighty.

[Stebie9173]

Just a final point to throw in. All of the men with numbers around his seem to have gone overseas with the 20th Battalion K.R.R.C. A look at surviving service records shows all of the C90XX numbered men being enlisted straight into the 20th battalion (in later September/early October 1915), trained with them and went overseas in March 1916 with the original overseas contingent of 20th battalion. I am wondering whether C/9048 Victor / Alfred Hopkins went overseas with 20th Battalion and then transferred to 18th Battalion?

 

Steve.

Edited 16 September , 2018 by Stebie9173

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi Just a question. If GD Alfred is down as Victor and Victor is down as Hubert and vice versa what name would  his medals have on them and when the War office contacted Mr / Mrs Leonard Hopkins (parents of Alfred) when he was wounded whose name would that have on? It's probably a dumb question but it is early in the morning!

Denise

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Stebie9173 said:

Just a final point to throw in. All of the men with numbers around his seem to have gone overseas with the 20th Battalion K.R.R.C. A look at surviving service records shows all of the C90XX numbered men being enlisted straight into the 20th battalion (in later September/early October 1915), trained with them and went overseas in March 1916 with the original overseas contingent of 20th battalion. I am wondering whether C/9048 Victor / Alfred Hopkins went overseas with 20th Battalion and then transferred to 18th Battalion?

 

Steve.

 

His C/9048 service number certainly falls in the range originally reserved for 20/KRRC, so I suspect his first posting after volunteering was to 20th Bn.

 

Generally however the battalion sequence in the medal roll is chronological, so I'm inclined to trust that he was with 18/KRRC when he went out.

 

I suspect that what has happened is he enlisted into 20/KRRC, got transferred to 18/KRRC as a serjeant before he left England and was then transferred back to 20/KRRC after he'd landed in France.

 

As a service battalion, the regiment may have felt 18/KRRC had greater need of good, competent Senior NCOs than 20/KRRC.  Perhaps that's why Hopkins got transferred.  While a pioneer battalion like 20/KRRC would be a more natural home for a miner like Hopkins, so perhaps that's why he was transferred back.

 

I'm away from my books just now and will be doing some digging into what was happening between these two Bns in 1916 once I'm back home.

[MBrockway]

Denise,

By April 1911, your great grandmother had had 10 children, only 8 of whom were then still alive. So your granddad Alfred had lost two siblings in childhood.

 

The eight I have identified so far are:

1. Edward Arthur (1883)
2. Leonard Peter (1885)
3. Lettice Alice (1888)
4. Edith (~1891)
5. Alfred Henry (1892)
6. Lillian Lucy (1897)
7. Hubert Ellis (1899)
8. Annie Elizabeth (1903)

There was an Elijah Hopkins born 1886 and died 1890 in the Congleton area where Leonard and Elizabeth began their married life, but I have no evidence confirming he was their child.

 

Do you know if either of your granddad's lost siblings was called Victor?

 

Mark

 

[wandererpaul]

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Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[wandererpaul]

.

 

Edited 17 September , 2018 by wandererpaul

[MBrockway]

2 hours ago, wandererpaul said:

To clear up his brother, Hubert Ellis.........

 

Hubert Ellis Hopkins B Z/6169 RND, served as an Ordinary Rating and was awarded the British War and Victory medals, shown here on ancestry.

 

 

Hubert Ellis Hopkins

Birth Date:14 Mar 1899

Year Range:1916-1917

Service Number:Z/6169

Division:Bristol

 

His record is at the national Archives, as shown above by stebie, post #112.

 

 

He definitely served in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, but I don't think he served in the Royal Naval Division - i.e. the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division - on the Western Front.

[MBrockway]

Could some kind Pal with expertise in decoding Royal Naval accounting postings possibly decode Hubert Hopkins' RNVR Bristol Division service history for us?

 

His initial enlistment was 13 Jun 1917 as Ordinary Seaman Z/6169.  He appears on the RNVR medal roll as B.Z/6169 - i.e. Bristol Division.

 

Can we ascertain where he served?

 

This is what we can glimpse through the free-to-view facility on TNA ...

 

Mark

 

 

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi Just spoken with my eldest cousin. She had been told by a family member when doing some research that there had been another child but she needs to go back and look at her information. I'm going over to my sister's and along with my cousin we are going to go to Ripley Library to see what information they have in their papers with regard to granddad. It's only a story but I can remember my dad -Victor Ellis Henry Hopkins telling me that granddad  'ran away' to war and had told an untruth to the army but I couldn't remember why. I presumed it was because he was under age but that was not the case and as you have found through your research that he went under the name of Victor. May be he got himself into some sort of trouble so 'ran away' to war using a different name! 

Denise

[MBrockway]

Thanks to Madmeg and Paul we had a glimpse back in Post #79 of C/6235 Rfn A H Hopkins of 18/KRRC, but who has rather faded away again since.

 

These 18/KRRC Depot Coys Part 2 Orders relate to a transfer on 22 Oct 1915 of C/6235 Hopkins, A.H. from 'A' Company in the main 18/KRRC battalion (who were in Blighty at Witley) back to the battalion's depot companies who were still at Gidea Park.  These transfers during the K3 training phase were most likely due to sickness or injury, but sometimes they indicate there were concerns whether a recruit was under age, of marginal fitness, or was not likely to make an efficient soldier.

 

In Oct 1915 Hubert Ellis Hopkins would have been 16 years old.

 

In approx June 1915 when the newspaper reports state Alfred Henry Hopkins enlisted with the KRRC, Hubert would have been 16 and Alfred 22 yrs.

 

When Hubert Hopkins was called up into the RNVR Bristol Division on  13 Jun 1917, he was 18 yrs 2 months, so presumably conscripted under the Military Services Act.

 

How about if Alfred and Hubert both joined up together in June 1915 during one of the 18/KRRC recruiting campaigns in Derbyshire?

 

With Hubert two years under age, perhaps they decided that Hubert should enlist under his elder brother's name and date of birth as C/6235 Hopkins, A.H. while Alfred enlisted under the name Victor (which name does seem to have important resonances within the family) as C/9048 Hopkins, V?

 

Between June and October 1915, the battalion rumbled that Hubert (aka C/6235 "Alfred H" Hopkins) was under age and transferred hi back to the depot companies where he was eventually discharged.

 

Move on two summers and Hubert now aged 18 is called up to the RNVR under the routine military conscription system but this time serving under his real name as Z/6169 Hopkins, Hubert Ellis in the RNVR Bristol Division.

 

 

This certainly seems a neat solution to resolve our conundrum ....

 

 ... but there is at least one flaw:  if they enlisted together into 18/KRRC why are their KRRC service numbers not closer together?

 

Furthermore in the standard KRRC service number prefix schema, C/6235 is in the 18/KRRC range, but C/9048 is in the 20/KRRC range and would actually suggest one of the first 50 to volunteer for the new battalion when it was raised in summer 1915 

 

All the same, the KRRC is full of similar anomalies and this speculative hypothesis is at least food for thought!

 

Mark