Suzanne Rideout Posted 5 September , 2018 Share Posted 5 September , 2018 I am new to this site, I have been reading all afternoon, so very interesting. Can you help me further with my husbands Great Uncle who was captured at the Battle of Loos. I have previously contacted the Red Cross but they had no information at all. Thanks in advance. Emsley James Swain Private Northamptonshire Regiment. Reg No 15204. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tavern Druid Posted 5 September , 2018 Share Posted 5 September , 2018 Hi Suzanne I found the attached on Find my Past. Have attached thier transcption and a copy of the image. Hope this helps. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne Rideout Posted 5 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 5 September , 2018 Thank you David. A document I have not seen before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tavern Druid Posted 5 September , 2018 Share Posted 5 September , 2018 happy to help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 5 September , 2018 Share Posted 5 September , 2018 (edited) Hi Suzanne, Welcome to the forum. I think that you might have been misled by the Red Cross. From the index card in this link put the PA numbers shown into the search box, should then take you through to a couple of (brief) PoW records. Regards Chris Edit: In your last photo, he's wearing 'hospital blues' (- see for example here) and appears to be sporting a General Service cap badge rather than the Northants one shown in the newspaper photo. Edited 5 September , 2018 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 5 September , 2018 Share Posted 5 September , 2018 Suzanne Welcome You are probably aware that you can read the War Diary of 7 Northants for September 1915. It is available on Ancestry.co.uk or you can order it from the National Archives. The reference is WO 95/2218/2. The Bn was part of 73 Infantry Brigade of 24 Division so you will want the WD for 73 IB as well. The reference is WO 95/2216/1. There is a five page handwritten report of the action in the Brigade WD. The Brigade was put under the orders of 9 Div for the Operation (from 25 -28 September). The Bn was in trenches near a coal mining feature named Fosse 8 and had over 400 casualties. Fosse 8 was to the north east of Vermelles and can be seen on Map 36 C NW in square A 28 and 29 (and G 5 in later maps). https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465014 Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne Rideout Posted 5 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 5 September , 2018 Thank you Brian and Chris for your input, i will have a look at what you both have suggested. The last photograph of Emsley is in hospital blues he died in our local isolation hospital of TB. Family have said the Germans injected it into him, not sure on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 5 September , 2018 Share Posted 5 September , 2018 Hi Suzanne, If he was repatriated on 19th December 1918 and discharged to the 'Z' Reserve (per his medal roll record) on 24th April 1919 that would give a reasonably tight window for the date of the photo. It would also imply that he was deemed to be fit enough to be subject to immediate recall in the eventuality of a resumption of hostilities. 22 minutes ago, Suzanne Rideout said: he died in our local isolation hospital of TB. Family have said the Germans injected it into him, not sure on this. I see that he died in 1926. I could understand that he may have had an underlying health condition that was caused by/made him more susceptible to it as a result of his war experience, treatment and privations, but being deliberately being injected with TB! My money would be on that being a family myth. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 5 September , 2018 Share Posted 5 September , 2018 the "Accrington" sailed from Rotterdam, and passed the Hook of Holland out to sea at 05.55AM on December 18th 1918. Must have been a choppy crossing as the next ship, the Bass Rock on its way to London, went out to sea 5 minutes later, and returned to port due to bad weather! The weatherreport for that day (in the same newspaper) says : "08.55AM received stormwarning 1, southwesterly storm". From Delpher (newspaper: "de Maasbode" 18th December 1918, evening edition. A Rotterdam (catholic) newspaper) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne Rideout Posted 5 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 5 September , 2018 Thank you JWK . The crossing must of been horrendous in those conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 6 September , 2018 Share Posted 6 September , 2018 Emsley Swain would have enlisted on 7 September 1914 according to his number. This was a week before Edgar Mobbs went on his recruiting drive. The battalion embarkation roll shows him as being in "B" Company. He would have been demobilised with 28 days leave under normal circumstances prior to his transfer to Reserve but most released POWs also got a further month, so he would have been demobilised in February 1919. I don't think the last photo is of Emsley. The man is wearing a Lancashire Fusiliers cap badge - his younger brother Eric Charles Everett Swain (10th Lancashire Fusiliers followed by 15th Lancashire Fusiliers (No. 57045) and then East Lancashire Regiment (No. 52532) seems to be a better bet. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 7 September , 2018 Share Posted 7 September , 2018 (edited) A bit of morning inspiration - I have found his iCRC card under Swan rather than Swain. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1787821/3/2/ (My apologies clk, I didn't realise the link you posted went straight to the above card!) The second page linked to from his record is a hospital list showing that he was at Libau. I have looked at the men moved to the Russia front before. The following link leads to a few lines of information I put together on the "Englische Kommando". I looks like Emsley Swain was part of "Englische Kommando 4 (E.K.4.)". https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/56381-doeberitz-pow-camp/?tab=comments#comment-2137659 If you search for the term Libau on the Forum quite a few posts will come up. Steve. Edited 9 September , 2018 by Stebie9173 Apology for my error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 9 September , 2018 Share Posted 9 September , 2018 (edited) I have put together what I think is the most likely route for Private Swain to have followed through the war: 1914 - 07.09.14 Enlisted, posted to "B" Company of 7th Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment 1915 - 01.09.15 To France 1915 - 27.09.15 Captured at Loos - POW 1916 - Unknown dates, POW camps at Munster, then Crefeld 1916 - 07.05.16 Transported by train to Libau in Courland (Western Latvia) as part of E.K.4. - Work on docks 1917 - Feb 1917 Transported east to Mitau in central Latvia - employed behind German lines digging trenches, burying German and Russian dead, etc. 1917 - 07.06.17 Return to Libau (assuming that he returned with main contingent of E.K.4.) 1917 - 14.09.17 Known current location ("Frankheit gegenwärtiger") at the Gflz (Gefangenen-Lazarette; POW hospital) at Czersk (in modern Poland), previously at the Lz. (Lazarette; Military hospital) at Libau. The "Schutt" part may refer to the Schutt furniture factory at Czersk. 1918 - July 1918 At Minden POW camp per Norhampton Independent of 13-7-1918 1918 - 18.12.18 Left Rotterdam aboard the s.s. Accrington bound for Hull 1918 - 19.12.18 Arrived at Hull. Probably sent to the POW repatriation camp at Ripon Steve. Edited 9 September , 2018 by Stebie9173 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne Rideout Posted 10 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 10 September , 2018 Hi Steve, we were always led to believe the Photograph of Emsley was him in his hospital blues. Chris thought the badge was a general service badge ??. On 09/09/2018 at 12:30, Stebie9173 said: I have put together what I think is the most likely route for Private Swain to have followed through the war: 1914 - 07.09.14 Enlisted, posted to "B" Company of 7th Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment 1915 - 01.09.15 To France 1915 - 27.09.15 Captured at Loos - POW 1916 - Unknown dates, POW camps at Munster, then Crefeld 1916 - 07.05.16 Transported by train to Libau in Courland (Western Latvia) as part of E.K.4. - Work on docks 1917 - Feb 1917 Transported east to Mitau in central Latvia - employed behind German lines digging trenches, burying German and Russian dead, etc. 1917 - 07.06.17 Return to Libau (assuming that he returned with main contingent of E.K.4.) 1917 - 14.09.17 Known current location ("Frankheit gegenwärtiger") at the Gflz (Gefangenen-Lazarette; POW hospital) at Czersk (in modern Poland), previously at the Lz. (Lazarette; Military hospital) at Libau. The "Schutt" part may refer to the Schutt furniture factory at Czersk. 1918 - July 1918 At Minden POW camp per Norhampton Independent of 13-7-1918 1918 - 18.12.18 Left Rotterdam aboard the s.s. Accrington bound for Hull 1918 - 19.12.18 Arrived at Hull. Probably sent to the POW repatriation camp at Ripon Steve. On 09/09/2018 at 12:30, Stebie9173 said: I have put together what I think is the most likely route for Private Swain to have followed through the war: 1914 - 07.09.14 Enlisted, posted to "B" Company of 7th Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment 1915 - 01.09.15 To France 1915 - 27.09.15 Captured at Loos - POW 1916 - Unknown dates, POW camps at Munster, then Crefeld 1916 - 07.05.16 Transported by train to Libau in Courland (Western Latvia) as part of E.K.4. - Work on docks 1917 - Feb 1917 Transported east to Mitau in central Latvia - employed behind German lines digging trenches, burying German and Russian dead, etc. 1917 - 07.06.17 Return to Libau (assuming that he returned with main contingent of E.K.4.) 1917 - 14.09.17 Known current location ("Frankheit gegenwärtiger") at the Gflz (Gefangenen-Lazarette; POW hospital) at Czersk (in modern Poland), previously at the Lz. (Lazarette; Military hospital) at Libau. The "Schutt" part may refer to the Schutt furniture factory at Czersk. 1918 - July 1918 At Minden POW camp per Norhampton Independent of 13-7-1918 1918 - 18.12.18 Left Rotterdam aboard the s.s. Accrington bound for Hull 1918 - 19.12.18 Arrived at Hull. Probably sent to the POW repatriation camp at Ripon Steve. Hi Steve, you have been busy.Ive been trying to translate the German part, now you have done it for me thank you kindly Suzanne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 10 September , 2018 Share Posted 10 September , 2018 Hi Suzanne, 57 minutes ago, Suzanne Rideout said: Chris thought the badge was a general service badge ??. I think that Steve in post #11 came up with a lot, lot better suggestion with the Lancashire Fusiliers - similar to this one Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne Rideout Posted 10 September , 2018 Author Share Posted 10 September , 2018 Hi Chris, Yes so that means Eric his brother was also injured in some way, and was convalescing somewhere. Many thanks for info Suzanne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 10 September , 2018 Share Posted 10 September , 2018 (edited) On 09/09/2018 at 13:30, Stebie9173 said: 1918 - July 1918 At Minden POW camp per Norhampton Independent of 13-7-1918 The article stating that he returned home is dated 11-1-1919 ( swainjan111919.jpg ) if I read it correctly ( The 13-7-1918 date is of the article with the groupfoto. wainjul131918.jpg) So he probably was in Minden untill the very end and some time after that. The road to Rotterdam (and home) probably led through Enschede, Hengelo (Overijssel), or Oldenzaal. And from there maybe to Amersfoort first, then on to Rotterdam. The (Enschede, hengelo, Oldenzaal) region was dealing with a lót of POW's in those days: Just one day in december 1918: e.g. 11-12-1918 Enschede: last night 413 Italian, 250 Belgian, and 1213 English POW's arrived on foot from Gronau (Germany) Furthermore 1 train carrying 1956 English, and 1 train carrying 1000 French POW's During the course of the day 2360 English and 250 Belgian POW's left for Amersfoort, and 1000 English POW's marched to Hengelo, while 90 sick and injured men were driven there. Seeing that Private Swain wasn't in the best of forms (to put it mildly) maybe he was one of the 90? Pure speculation ofcourse. Edited 10 September , 2018 by JWK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomb1302 Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 Suzanne, What do you know about the French at the camp? I have learned just recently of a relative of mine caught during the Siege of Maubeuge, and held there the entirety of the war. Additionally, what response did the Red Cross yield? Thank you and Happy New Year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne Rideout Posted 26 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 26 July , 2019 Hi Tomb1302, I know nothing about the French at the camp. This site has been absolutely fantastic with my research into the Swain brothers. I have written to the Red Cross on two occasions and they said they could not find any records, but the troops/ fellow researchers did. Sorry for late response Goodluck with your search in Maubeuge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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