Hargicourt Cemeteries - German Burials

[WiseMonkey]

In my research, I came across the following photograph of British graves (inscriptions in German), which has triggered a few questions in my mind. I hope that someone might be able to shed some light.

 

The AWM photograph description reads

 

Graves of four British soldiers buried by the Germans with their own dead in a cemetery near Hargicourt. The graves are marked with wooden crosses. The grave (far left) is marked 'Wall (Mansch) C. E. 351893 E' and is the grave of 351895 Private (Pte) F T Wall 9th Battalion (Bn) Manchester Regiment (Regt). (Note the service number on the cross is incorrect). The second grave is marked 'H. Ibert C. E. 38384 E. L. R'. The third grave is marked 'T. Massey P. M. 241913 5 E. L. R.' and is the grave of 241913 Pte T Massey 2nd/5th Bn East Lancashire Regt. These three crosses also bear the words 'Hier
ruht der engl. Soldat' (here lies the English soldier). The last cross bears the words 'Hier ruht ein engl. Soldat unb.' (here lies an unknown English soldier). Other crosses can be seen in the background.

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C967076

 

At first, I assumed that the photograph was of the Hargicourt Communal Cemetery German Extension. The language of the AWM description is rather ambiguous. I thought that the "with their own dead" descriptor was in reference to the German Army and the German dead (German Extension). However, upon further research, it is clear that the photograph is of the Hargicourt British Cemetery. Wall, Hibbert, Massey and the Unknown British soldier are resting in Plot 1 Row K Graves 3 - 6 at Hargicourt British. I considered maybe Wall, Hibbert and Massey were the three British graves "brought in after the Armistice from HARGICOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY GERMAN EXTENSION", however, none of these men have concentration documentation. From the photograph, there is a visible incline with 2 figures, in the background, noticeably higher than the graves.  Hargicourt Extension is on reasonably flat ground whereas Hargicourt British is on an incline, therefore it could only be Hargicourt British Cemetery in the photograph. This photograph has now got my asking a few questions.

 

1. Why didn't the Germans bury the 4 photographed British graves in the British Cemetary? Was it a courtesy? 

 

However, the Hargicourt British Cemetry information mentions 3 British graves being brought in from the German Extension. 

 

2. Who were the 3 graves exhumed and why were they buried in the German Extension, unlike Wall et al?

 

3. This is something I would love to know in my researching. Is there an efficient way to find concentration documents without having to rake through every entry of a cemetery? 

 

4. Why are there 2 German graves remaining in Hargicourt British while the 177 German graves in the German Extension have been removed?

 

5. What happened to the exhumed German soldiers from the German Extension?

 

Most of these questions are for my own curiosity, however, I hope that someone can enlighten me. I also would very much like to get an answer to question 3 to hopefully improve my efficiency in researching.

 

1

Edited 2 September , 2018 by WiseMonkey
Clarification of title

[Jaeger6]

I have no idea about your first three questions but a guess about the last two.

 

4) It might be that the two remaining graves are of soldiers whose remains were found after the German cemetery was already dissolved. Another possibility is that their origin was only verified after the dissolution of the German cemetery. Throughout Flanders you often find single German graves on British cemeteries because of these two reasons.

 

5) The German counterpart to the CWGC, the Volksbund or VdK (Volksbund deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge), is notoriuosly underfunded. The presence of German soldiers or the rememberance of German soldiers was also a tricky thing in the areas that had been occupied by German troops between 1914-18 and even worse after 1945. So all small German cemeteries were dissolved, beginning already directly after WWI, and the remains brought to large cemeteries of which only a small number exist. There are, for example, only eight cemeteries in Belgium left which are called "Sammelfriedhof" (collective cemetery).

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

I'll try to answer some questions.

 

1. They seem to have been buried just beyond the British cemetery. Borders between "cemetery", "cemetery extension" etc are a creation from after the war, once things were settled and the plots had to be officially fenced off and the rights over the plots had to be agreed upon.

 

2. Most probably the Germans just continued burying bodies along the same lines as the British had been doing. Since officially the rows further were started by the Germans, the area was called "German extension", even though originally it was all just one cemetery, started by the British and continued by the Germans. As there were some British graves among the German graves, there are two possible reasons why the British graves were moved: a. post-war care for German graves was a lot less than care for British graves. This caused upset among British relatives visiting the graves and asking why some British soldiers were buried in nicely maintend cemeteries while others were in a kind of jungle among German graves or b. as the german graves were cared for by the French after the war and they concentrated German graves into larger cemeteries, the few remaining British graves were left in an empty meadow, thus necessitating their transfer to free place in the British cemetery.

 

3. Not as far as I know. There is a use on this fourm (laughton, I believe) who has downloaded and grouped the burial return sheets into folders.

 

4. In principle, German war graves in British cemeteries were left were they ware and the care for them was taken over by the IWGC (still at that point) as a token of respect for all war dead. The respect for each other's dead and the need for burial and exchange of information about them was something which had been mentioned in the pre-war Geneva and similar conventions. As the German extension was seen as a "German cemetery" it was under responisibility of the French war graves and thus treated as they thought, meaning the burials were moved to a concentration cemetery. The German graves on the British cemetery were IWGC responsibility and thus remained were they were in accordance with the views of the time.

 

5. I assume they were exhumed by the French in the first post-war years and transferred by the French to a German concentration cemetery and reburied. Information should be in the magazines from the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge from those years. Be aware that the VDK (Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge) is not comparable to the CWGC. The VDK started as a private peace organisation in 1919 calling for peace and reconciliation over the war graves. They were involved in the care (nothing more, nothing less) of the German war graves in France from the mid 1920's onwards (meaning they could organise travels, raise funds to improve the gardening etc of German war cemeteries and appoint architects etc to bring these cemeteries in a decent shape as far as the French approved). The VDK only got full responsibility over the German WWI war graves in France after an official Franco-German agreement in 1966. The VDK is until today a private organisation bearing the responsibility over all German war graves and receiving very little German state money for this task (as the official policy of German is that they have nothing to do with any army or military unit before the Bundeswehr was founded).

 

I hope this answers a few of your questions.

 

Jan

[AOK4]

31 minutes ago, Jaeger6 said:

I have no idea about your first three questions but a guess about the last two.

 

4) It might be that the two remaining graves are of soldiers whose remains were found after the German cemetery was already dissolved. Another possibility is that their origin was only verified after the dissolution of the German cemetery. Throughout Flanders you often find single German graves on British cemeteries because of these two reasons.

 

5) The German counterpart to the CWGC, the Volksbund or VdK (Volksbund deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge), is notoriuosly underfunded. The presence of German soldiers or the rememberance of German soldiers was also a tricky thing in the areas that had been occupied by German troops between 1914-18 and even worse after 1945. So all small German cemeteries were dissolved, beginning already directly after WWI, and the remains brought to large cemeteries of which only a small number exist. There are, for example, only eight cemeteries in Belgium left which are called "Sammelfriedhof" (collective cemetery).

 

Jaeger6, your answers are incorrect, see my answer.

 

4. German soldiers found anywhere (apart from actually inside the cemetery) after the German cemetery was dissolved were buried in one of the new German cemeteries, never in an allied cemetery.

 

5. There are actually far more than 8 "German cemeteries" in Belgium left. Four purely German in West Flanders (Vladslo, Langemark, Hooglede and Menen), three German-British which were originally german but were taken over by the British after an agreement in the 1930's (Zeebrugge, Hautrage and Mons St. Symphorien) and some others (Evere, Lommel - with a small number of WWI graves and several mostly Franco-German cemeteries in Belgian Luxemburg). The concentration of German cemeteries into larger concentration cemeteries is something which had started already during the war, had been continued after the war and especially after WW2 when the VDK was given the care over the German WWI war graves in Belgium.

 

The history of these German cemeteries is very complicated and differs from country to country. I have written some books about this subject already (mainly in Dutch) and I am writing a few in English at the moment.

 

Jan

[laughton]

I missed this topic earlier, sorry. Let me first assemble the details.

 

There are three (3) sets of Hagricourt ZIPPED files: (caution - there are two Hagricourts in France)

1. Hagricourt British Cemetery
2. Hagricourt Communal Cemetery Extension
3. Hagricourt French Military Cemetery

 

If there are no COG-BR files listed it does not mean they do not exist. Some exist that the CWGC have not assembled and posted. Some (Adanac is the worst for me) were lost, even though they once existed and contain very valuable information! Many GRRF documents mention at the top if the graves were "concentrations" so check.

 

Hibert 38384 is in Hargicoourt British Cemetery (GRRF 2010045) so that shows us Wall and Massey as well (Plot 1 Row K). Then there are four (4) unknown soldiers. The two Germans are in the row (Plot 1 Row L) and both were identified (CWGC Link). They are on GRRF 2010047.

 

I think we can assume that Wall, Hibert and Massey were killed on the opening day of Operation Michael in 21 March 1918 (Hibert's date is probably incorrect on the CWGC as 31 March - did you check?). The Headstone Schedules show the corrected dates - almost - (HD-SCHD 2109007 & HD-SCHD 2109009). The CWGC referes to the three (3) British graves that were concentrated here from the German Extension. They may have brought the Germans at the same time, perhaps not even knowing they were German until the identifications were made. MANY graves marked German ended up being British so it was quite common for the British to exhume them and check.

 

Quote

Hargicourt was occupied by British troops in April 1917, lost on the 21st March 1918, and recaptured by Australian troops on the 18th September 1918. Hargicourt British Cemetery was begun in May 1917, and used by fighting units until March 1918; some further burials were made in September and October 1918, and three British graves were brought in after the Armistice from HARGICOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY GERMAN EXTENSION.

 

The British cemetery would have been in German hands after 21 March 1918 until recaprtured in September. The British were adding men to the end of the rows in Plot 1 in January 1918, up to row H. They then started on Row I. Evidence of concentrations starts to appear in Row J where you can see men killed in October 1918 (Major Graham) are before men who died in February 1918. It looks like Lance Corporal Morrell was the last to be buried in Plot 1 Row K in March 1918, prior to the concentrations of Hall, Hibert and Massey. After Plot 1 Row K Grave 9 it would appear that the burials relate to the time after Hagricourt had been returned to British hands. From the CWGC description (quoted above) it would appear they were new direct burials.

 

On checking further into the two Germans in Plot 1 Row L Graves 15 & 16 it would appear they were not named on 2 December 1920. The CWGC database shows them as still there today (CWGC Link) named as Geibel and Gebert on a GRRF dated checked on 15 September 1926. The two Germans were also killed on 21 March 1918 on the opening day of Operation Michael.

 

There are no Canadians in this cemetery, otherwise I could check casualty records for concentration details. You should check the Australians in the immediate area of the graves, they might tell you of the concentrations.

 

Here is what the CWGC says about the Hargicourt Communal Cemetery Extension:
 

Quote

Hargicourt was occupied by British troops in April 1917, lost on the 21st April 1918, and recaptured by Australian troops on the 18th September 1918. The Cemetery was made in August 1917, and January, September and October 1918, beyond a German Extension of the Protestant Communal Cemetery; the 177 German graves have been removed, and the British Extension is now isolated. There are now over 70, 1914-18 war casualties commemorated in this site. Of these, a small number are unidentified. 

 

Two of the 177 German graves must be the two that went to the Hargicourt British Cemetery. If what the CWGC says is correct, it would appear that they took five (5) graves out that were perhaps questionable at the time, which turned out to be the three (3) named British and two (2) Germans that went to the British cemetery. It is possible that it was only after they were removed that they were identified as Germans, so they kept all five together. It could be that happened in 1926. The Germans were not initially named on the GRRF documents from 1920. There are 5,797 Germans buried in (or named) for CWGC cemeteries in France.

 

There are three (3) unknown British in Row B Graves 6, 7 and 8. The dates of the others on that page suggest death was 29 September 1918 or thereabouts. The two (2) known to have died that date and buried in that cemetery were Privates Last (1st Bn.) and Norgate (3rd Bn.) of the Tank Corps. There are 19 Unknown Tank Corps men for that date (CWGC Link), five (5) of the 1st Bn none of the 1st Bn.

 

An American was removed from Row C Grave 2. I am curious as to whether that is the sole American tha was moved to the Portsmouth (Kingston) Cemetery or if if is just a coincidence that his date of death was also 29 September 1918. Where was Private Bertrand Kinsell of the 343 U.S. Infantry when he died?

 

The question was "the Germans" so to me it appears they took the five (5) graves not knowing that two (2) were German, until they were exhumed, identified and buried at the British cemetery. Rather than put them back or take them away with the other 175 Germans - no idea who moved them - they left them at the British cemetery.

Edited 7 September , 2019 by laughton
fixing date errors