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Remembered Today:

German infantry records


Bob Walker

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I'm helping my elderly German neighbour re-trace his Grandfather's steps. 

He has recently discovered hundreds of photos and diaries. The diaries were written in Sutterlin and I am in the process of getting them translated by a University's linguistics department.

I have tried Googling every combination I know but have found it hard to discover if German military records survived WW2. 

We know the names of many of the villages and towns where his grandfather was posted from the diaries but there are some gaps that a regt diary could fill in.

He was with the 141 (regt ?) based in the villages to the south and west of  St Quentin initially but then moved further North.

Are there any German military resources available ?

Many thanks 

 

 

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Thanks for the reply.

 

Yes I think he was from that area.....and yes Valenciennes is mentioned.   He has photos of the regt hospital, cemetery, dressing station  and pictures in the trenches .  Looking at the diaries they didn't half move around a lot. ..many different villages and locations.

The annoying thing is that he gives the day and the month quite often..but not always the year. 

 

 

 

 

I was just wondering if regt records still exist...

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There seems to be a Regimental history from 1926

The Imperial War Museum has a copy of Das kulmer Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 141 im Weltkriege : Nach amtlichen Unterlagen und Berichten der Mitkämpfer / bearbeitet von Edmund Schulemann

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1504003586

 

 

Edited by JWK
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You can download "Histories of two hundred and fifty-one divisions of the German army which participated in the war (1914-1918)" (an American forces publication) here:

http://www.vlib.us/wwi/resources/germanarmywwi.pdf

49 MB

 

It has an abbreviated history of the 35th Infanterie Division (which included IR141): 3 pages, starting at pagenr 398 in the PDF file

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The impression I have (which could be wrong) is that military records are to be found in State Archives in Germany, with the proviso that some Archives were bombed in WW2 and all records lost, so it very much depends where the Regiment originated. However, it seems from JWK's link Regiment 141 was from West Prussia, which is now Poland, so the access situation is unknown. Perhaps you could enquire from the Polish Embassy/Consul in the country where you live.

 

Some of the State Libraries in Germany have digitised regimental histories and there are some GWF topics

The latter topic has a link to some digitised German regimental histories in the ?Polish Digital Library. Might be with while checking to see if there is anything on Regiment 141.

 

"Histories of two hundred and fifty-one divisions of the German army" mentioned by JWK

is also available on Archive.org, where it can be read online if you don't want to download it

https://archive.org/stream/cu31924027835317#page/n418/mode/1up

Cheers

Maureen

Edited by Maureene
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Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but the regimental histories (and any other sources) from the other infantry regiments of the division are likely to contain a lot of information relevant to IR 141 as well. Note that IR 21 left 35.ID in May 1915 when the division was triangularised (converted from two brigades of two regiments each to a single brigade of three regiments) and had no further contact with IR 141 so far as I know. IR 21 and 176 both have published histories (see the bibliography section on each page).

 

http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_21

http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_61

http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_176

 

Of these regiments, IR 176 probably had the closest relationship to IR 141 as they were brigaded together from the outset.

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If you are looking for biographical information for soldiers serving in the Prussian army after 1866 (IR 141 was a Prussian unit) you won´t be very successful searching the state archives. The career-infornation for the prussian soldiers were recorded in the Stammrollen and Kriegsstammrollen which were stored in the Prussian Army Archive (Heeresarchiv) which was destroyed by fire shortly before the end of WW2 in Potsdam (25th April 1945). If you are looking for information of more general nature pertaining to the regiment, like interactions with city or state authorities, you will find some information on city and state level archives, provided they survived WW2.

GreyC

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I'm sure I speak on behalf of the vast majority of the members here on this board (imagine North-Korean-election-results-majority) when I say : I'd lóve to see some of the pictures that your neighbour has discovered! And maybe some pages of the diaries? (No problem if they're in Sutterlin/deutsche Kurrent. We take that in our stride)

 

Also what's your neighbour's granddad's name? And does he know which village/city/town he came from?

Polish archives are being digitalised as we speak. You never know where it might lead. There's a lót of knowledge and resources around on this forum, you just have to ask.

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39 minutes ago, JWK said:

I'm sure I speak on behalf of the vast majority of the members here on this board (imagine North-Korean-election-results-majority) when I say : I'd lóve to see some of the pictures that your neighbour has discovered! And maybe some pages of the diaries? (No problem if they're in Sutterlin/deutsche Kurrent. We take that in our stride)

 

Also what's your neighbour's granddad's name? And does he know which village/city/town he came from?

Polish archives are being digitalised as we speak. You never know where it might lead. There's a lót of knowledge and resources around on this forum, you just have to ask.

I'll double check his surname and the town.  

I went over to  the Battlefields in  France and Belgium for the first time in July. I visited the three places my great Uncle was based (Ploegsteert Guillemont and Angres Sector near Vimy) and went to a few of  places my neighbour's grandfather  was based..St Quentin, Chaulnes, Fresnoy , Ham, Omiecourt.......but they seem to have moved further North later in the war 

Here are just  a couple of photos. I thought the second one might have been a barrage... but someone told me it might be a mine. 

 

 

20180627_113030.jpg

20180627_115124.jpg

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The scond picture is a well known picture which was sold on a large scale showing a flame thrower in action somewhere behind the front line.

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He writes about a French plane being shot down....wondering if it was this one. 

I know he was a keen photographer but perhaps some of the photos he had were mass produced ones as well. 

The ones i like are of the guys in the trenches..reminding us that the other side were just as young, just as human. 

 

20180627_074417.jpg

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  • 2 months later...

Hi Bob,

 

I'm also interested in learning more about Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 141.  My in-laws inherited a notebook that was taken in the fall of 1918 from a German officer, Ltn. Ernst Knueppelholz of this regiment.  The notebook may have been recovered from Ernt's body during a raid or an advance by the Canadian Corps.  Inside the front cover of the notebook is a letter, dated Aug 23, that was sent to Ernst by a friend back at the regimental depot.  The notebook contains a bit of poetry, some of it might be original, and passages copied from newspaper articles and other sources.

 

The Canadian officer who obtained the notebook was killed on Sept 28, just northwest of Cambrai.  He was doing a reconnaissance mission, as a member of the Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry, just prior to the Battle of Cambrai.  He was cut down by machine gun fire in front of unexpected old German wire.

 

So we have two young men whose paths crossed in the trenches of WW1, who both died within 5 weeks of each other.  Very sad!

 

Obtaining a translation of the old-fashioned German handwriting was a bit of a challenge, but well worth the effort.

 

I'd be very interested in seeing more of those photos of members of the regiment.  Perhaps Ltn. Knueppelholz will appear among them.

 

Bruce

Edited by bcockburn
Corrected typo
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Leutnant der Reserve Ernst Knüppelholz (born in Magdeburg on 11th April in an unspecified year - redacted for security reasons) was reported as wounded and missing in the Prussian Verlustliste of 15th October 1918. Note that there was invariably a significant delay between someone being noted as a casualty by their unit and appearing in the published lists.

 

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/9029029

 

It was (and still is, to a lesser extent) normal for Germans to have a first and middle name, and sometimes to use the middle name as their preferred form of address (the Rufname). This is a perennial bugbear when identifying individuals in German records. Military personnel records usually underline the Rufname for clarity but the published casualty lists are less precise.

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Hello,

 

Ernst Knüppelholz was missing since 18 August 1918 near Boiry according to the Red Cross. The Ehrenmal des Preussischen Offizierkorps lists him as died near Pelves on 26 August 1918.

 

Jan

 

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Thanks everybody for your help and suggestions!  Here is the chronology that I have reconstructed so far of the two soldiers who seemed to have crossed paths in the trenches in the fall of 1918:

 

July 5, 1918    Lieut. Loptson of the PPCLI earns a Military Cross during a daytime trench raid.  Two Germans are
                surprised and killed at a machine gun position.  Valuable intelligence is retrieved.

 

Aug 23, 1918   The letter is sent to Leutnant E. Knueppelholz, of Infanterie-Regiment 141 at the front.

 

Aug 25-29, 1918   The PPCLI captures large numbers of German prisoners from 5 different regiments.

 

Aug 26, 1918    IR 141 occupies part of Drocourt-Queant front line.
                The 35th Division, of which IE 141 is a member, loses 800 prisoners by Sept 30.

 

Aug 28, 1918    Lt Loptson leads a trench raiding party of 4 that engages with many enemy soldiers in
                their front line.  Perhaps this is when Ltn. Knueppelholz's notebook is captured.

 

Sept 19, 1918   PPCLI is moved from the front line back to rest billets southwest of Arras.

PPCLI entrains for the upcoming offensive to storm across the Canal du Nord in an offensive to
break through the Hindenburg Line at Cambrai.

 

Sept 26, 1918   PPCLI gets orders to move forward into the front line near Bullecourt.

 

Sept 28, 1918   The Canadian 1st and 4th divisions lead an attack across the Canal du Nord.

 

Sept 28, 1918   Lt. Loptson and his party are caught by machine gun fire in unexpected German wire near
                Tilloy, just north-west of Cambrai.  Lt. Loptson is seriously wounded.  Three other
                lieutenants are killed and two are wounded.

 

Sept 29, 1918   Lt. Loptson dies of his wounds in the evening.

 

Oct 1, 1918     IR 141 moved to new position northwest of Cambrai.

 

Oct 15, 1918    Lt. Ernst Knueppelholz is reported missing in the German casualty list.

 

There was a Knueppelholz family living in Magdeburg at the time of WW1. Erich Knueppelholz and his wife Margarete (b Nov 7, 1886 in Magdeburg) were both well-known architects.  In fact, Margaret won a prestigeous design competition just before WW1. Erich was born on Aug 1, 1886 in Magdeburg.  After the war they moved to Berlin.  He was still there until after WW2.  Erich and Margarete divorced in the 1920s.  She lived on under the ne new married name Margarete Knueppelholz-Roeser and died in Berlin in 1949.  I'm not sure, but it seems likely that Ernst Werner was either their son or their nephew.  There is an entry for Erich in Ernst Werner's list of addresses.  During the war Eric was serving in Landwehr I.R. 153.

 

I've attached the first part of Ernst Werner's notebook,for your interest.

 

Bruce

 

Bruce
 

Knueppelholz_architect_1939.PNG

Margaret_Knueppelholz_career_details.PNG

Werner_notebook_pt1.pdf

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1 hour ago, bcockburn said:

  I'm not sure, but it seems likely that Ernst Werner was either their son or their nephew. 

 

A son of someone born in 1886 would have served as an officer in WW1? Yes, if the girl would have given birth at the age of 10... Ernst was more probably the brother of Erich.

 

Please note that Ernst was taken POW (?) or had died already in the second half of August 1918. The date of publication in the Verlustlisten is irrelevant as we have the information from August from the Red Cross and the Ehrenmal des Preussischen Offizierkorps.

 

Jan

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