Caterpillar Valley Cemetery Case #1: Corporal 2nd Bn Leinster Regiment

[laughton]

This case comes from the analysis of cases on this GWF topic for the cemetery:

 

Caterpillar Valley Cemetery, Longueval

 

There I reported:

 

Quote

there is only one (1) Corporal of the 2nd Leinster Regiment (Frank Gurney) on the Thiepval Memorial - check if at 57c.S.10.b.7.5 on 18 August 1916

• COG-BR 1980716, GRRF 1980229

 

There were two (2) other missing Corporals on the Pozieres Memorial for March 1918, so I had to check them out as well (CWGC Link). They switched brigades and divisions between the August 1916 and March 1918, as described on Chris's LLT. I am curious as to why they were called the "Royal Canadians"? The web says "The regiment was established during the British Army reforms of 1881. The 100th and 109th Regiments of Foot merged, passing on their historic associations with both Canada and India."

 

Quote

The Prince of Wales’s Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians)

2nd Battalion
August 1914 : at Cork. Part of 17th Brigade in 6th Division. Moved to Cambridge on 18 August then on to Newmarket.
12 September 1914 : landed at St Nazaire.
14 October 1915 : transferred with Brigade to 24th Division.
19 October 1915 : transferred to 73rd Brigade in same Division.
1 February 1918 : moved to Tincourt and transferred to 47th Brigade in 16th (Irish) Division. Absorbed troops from disbanded 7th Bn.
13 April 1918 : absorbed troops from disbanded 6th Connaught Rangers.
23 April 1918 : transferred to 88th Brigade in 29th Division.

 

August 1916 (war diary page 285 of 528) - the 73rd Infantry Brigade is west of Guillemont 57c.T.19 so in the area where the remains were found at 57c.S.10.b.7.5.

 

March 1918 (war diary page 391 of 524) - the 47th Infantry Brigade is east of Hamel and the 2nd Leinsters withdrew via Caix 66e.E.3 and Demuin 66e.D.1 (not Demium) to Castel  66e.B.24.

 

Clearly, that means it was Corporal Frank Gurney lost in August 1916 that had to have been recovered at 57c.S.10.b.7.5. I will have to check some other files to see if that was a burial ground, as it is not reported on the CWGC list as one of the smaller cemeteries that was concentrated. There are a number of others in that area.

 

I should have noticed earlier that Corporal W Haggerty #7510 was also a Corporal of the 2nd Leinsters and he was exhumed from the same location. A check of the Headstone Register (HD-SCHD 2084947) tells us that they did not carry over the battalion details to that list. That may be why he was missed, as it clearly shows on the GRRF and the COG-BR.

 

A quick update as well, as there were two other Corporals of the 2nd Leinsters in Caterpillar Valley for the same period.

• Corporal Henry Clarke #8439 in 10.C.33 (COG-BR 1980733) recovered at 57c.S.10.b.3.5
• Corporal J Dempsey #826 in 10.C.17 (COG-BR 1980731) recovered at 57c.S.10.b.7.4 (later: he is a Private, why did I say Corporal?)

 

It is becoming very clear that there were a large number of burials in sector 57c.S.10.b.

 

 

Edited 18 March , 2019 by laughton
added information on two other Corporals recovered - but Dempsey was a Private?

[laughton]

Of the thirty-five (35) Corporals missing in France, from this battalion, there are NONE listed on SPECIAL MEMORIALS within any cemetery (CWGC Link). That clears that obstacle.

[Jervis]

Interesting- My GGranfather served alongside him and was wounded on the day he was killed. 

 

 

[Jervis]

On 17/08/2018 at 14:33, laughton said:

. I am curious as to why they were called the "Royal Canadians"? 

 

 

 

 

The 1st Battalion of the Leinster regiment was descended from the 100th regiment of foot which has the connection with Canada and retained the Royal designation. 

 

The original 100th regiment was raised in Dublin and fought in the war of 1812. In 1818 the regiment was disbanded in Canada. On disbanding officers and men were offered passage home or turn settler and accept a plot of land in Canada. 300  officers and men of the regiment founded the town of Richmond now a suburb of Ottawa. 

 

During the Crimean war, Canada raised a new regiment - The 100th regiment of foot - with many of the Richmond descendants of the original regiment joining up. The new regiment was permitted to retain the battle honours of old 100th foot. 

 

The 1858 regiment was made up entirely of Canadian men. In 1860 the regiment was given the name the Prince of Wales Royal Canadian regiment. However the connection with Canada was short lived as shortly after the Canadian depot was closed for cost saving reasons. Over time the Canadian character of the regiment was lost and by 1881 reforms the 100th was combined with the 109th to form the Leinster Regiment with a depot in Birr Ireland. However the officers of the 100th did not want to give up their Royal Canadian designation and insisted on its use.

 

Hence the title - Prince of Wales Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians). 

[laughton]

Thanks for the detail "Jervis" - a good history lesson.

 

Checking also to make absolutely sure he was never identified, he is not named on the Headstone Schedule (HD-SCHD 2084947), which was easy to find based on the other Corporal Haggerty listed in the grave next to our unknown Corporal.I should have noted that when I looked up Haggerty earlier.

 

There was one (1) Corporal of the Leinster Regiment (Michael John Glancy), coincidentally 2nd Battalion, that had that as the "Secondary Regiment". He moved to the Machine Gun Corps, died in 1916, but there is no impact in this case as he was lost in Belgium and has a known grave in Sanctuary Wood Cemetery. We always must check that Secondary Regiment.

 

This case is GOOD to go to reporting.

[laughton]

Just back checking on this to make sure this is still a "good to go" case. No additional comments.

 

There are the 7 lost in France, which in this case I included all the battalions, not just the 2nd:

 

surname	forename	death	unit	#	memorial
LOUGHENS	ERNEST	27-03-18	2nd Bn.	'1601'	POZIERES MEMORIAL
O'NEILL	WILLIAM	26-03-18	2nd Bn.	'1735'	POZIERES MEMORIAL
GURNEY	FRANK	18-08-16	2nd Bn.	'9467'	THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
COMAN	MICHAEL	22-03-18	7th Bn.	'1929'	POZIERES MEMORIAL
KEARNEY	PETER	27-03-18	7th Bn.	'2248'	POZIERES MEMORIAL
CAMPFIELD	FREDERICK	03-09-16	7th Bn.	'1521'	THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
MANSFIELD	MARTIN	02-09-16	7th Bn.	'3607'	THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

 

I don't see any question about this case - any comment from others?

[laughton]

On 17/08/2018 at 09:33, laughton said:

Clearly, that means it was Corporal Frank Gurney lost in August 1916 that had to have been recovered at 57c.S.10.b.7.5. I will have to check some other files to see if that was a burial ground, as it is not reported on the CWGC list as one of the smaller cemeteries that was concentrated. There are a number of others in that area.

 

I found one this morning that may be the site. It is the only one in 57c.S.10 that I can see on the CWGC DAL list: Google Search of CWGC = Black Watch Cemetery, High Wood

 

The DAL shows both the Black Watch Cemetery, Ledeghem and the Black Watch Cemetery, High Wood. The CWGC, as noted in the link, says the Belgian one was concentrated into Dadizeele New British Cemetery. There is nothing about the French version, so it no longer exists and was concentrated into another cemetery, probably Caterpillar Valley.

 

The coordinates are not exact, as it is listed as being at 57c.S.10.a.3.9. That places that cemetery on Lieth Walk Trench, about 500 yards southwest of the edge of HIgh Wood. The remains were found at 57c.S.10.b.7.5 which is 1,000 yards southeast of High Wood on Seaforth Trench [Map 3A(S) wo297_6634.ecw].

 

It could be that the whole of S.10 and surrounding sectors was riddled with remains after the war. Most certainly the area is a spider web of trenches!

[laughton]

The August 1916 war diary for the 2nd Battalion Leinster Regiment is not on the Ance$try site. It jumps from July (page 90 of 267) to September (page 96 of 267).

 

It is also missing on the wartime memories project site for the 2nd Leinsters.

 

Do any GWF Pals know if there is another source from the Leinster war diary for August 1916?

[jay dubaya]

Westlake’s ‘Battalions on the Somme’ 

 

in support for attack on Guillemont (18/8) - could advance no further than British front line which was held until relieved by 1st North Staffordshire’s at midnight. Withdrew with high casualties to the craters at Carnoy 

 

J

[Jervis]

3 hours ago, laughton said:

The August 1916 war diary for the 2nd Battalion Leinster Regiment is not on the Ance$try site. It jumps from July (page 90 of 267) to September (page 96 of 267).

 

It is also missing on the wartime memories project site for the 2nd Leinsters.

 

Do any GWF Pals know if there is another source from the Leinster war diary for August 1916?

 

Yes. I ran into the same problem on Ancestry. I downloaded the WD from the TNA which includes the missing pages

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

Westlake’s ‘Battalions on the Somme’ 

 

in support for attack on Guillemont (18/8) - could advance no further than British front line which was held until relieved by 1st North Staffordshire’s at midnight. Withdrew with high casualties to the craters at Carnoy 

 

J

 

The leinsters regimental history by Whitton describes in detail the action in August 1916. It is usually available for preview on google books.

 

Also “stand to” a memoir by captain Hitchcock of the same battalion provides additional information on same action. 

[jay dubaya]

Indeed google books copy can be viewed here, thanks for the pointers Jervis

 

J

[laughton]

Thanks for that link! Interesting, as I went to the Google Books site on this side of the pond and there is no preview of those pages, it only goes to page 117 (this link). That is good information for all members, as I am sure it probably applies elsewhere and perhaps with some books in reverse.

 

It would appear that the remains must have been in a burial area to the north of the action, as they were recovered (with others) from 57c.S.10.b.7.5. If I understand the text correctly, the movement of the 2nd Leinsters was from the east through Benfray Wood, Trones Wood and Arrow Head Copse. They tell of a trench between the two woods, perhaps the one shown in 57c.S.29 central.

 

The attack was to take place in the afternoon of the 18th, with the 2nd Leinster Regiment held back for the second stage of the attack. The battalion was to clear the village and establish strong points. They spent the morning bringing up stores, but from where I do not yet know.

 

There is a "Report on Operations" in the brigade war diary (page 299 of 528). The LLT tells us that the brigade would have had the 9th Bn Royal Sussex, 7th Bn Northamptonshire, 13th Bn Middlesex and the 2nd Bn Leinster. On the night of the 17th the 13th Middlesex was on the right and the 7th Northamptonshire on the left. The dividing line was the road from Trones Wood and Guillemont 57c.S.30. We pick up on the 2nd Leinsters when they moved into the trenches vacated by the 13th Middlesex (war diary page 302 of 528) for the second attack around 5:30 pm, which faltered under heavy shelling. They withdrew to Irish Alley in 57c.S.29.c,d.

 

The Operation Order is here: (War diary page 315 of 528). The Dressing Station was at the NW corner of Benfray Wood 57c.S.29.b.9.9.

 

To me this means that the remains of the Corporal were collected and taken north to the burial area, from which they were later concentrated into Caterpillar Valley Cemetery.

 

[laughton]

On 01/05/2019 at 09:16, laughton said:

To me this means that the remains of the Corporal were collected and taken north to the burial area, from which they were later concentrated into Caterpillar Valley Cemetery.

 

I should have reiterated that the reason that we know that the remains were taken north to Sector 57c.S.10 comes from the others that were concentrated into Caterpillar Valley Cemetery from the same location. These are noted in the previous posts. These were later in the month, so I will also go back and check mid-month when Corporal Gurney was killed.

• Corporal W Haggerty #7510 in 9.A.2 (COG-BR 1980716)  recovered at 57c.S.10.b.7.5 (beside the Unknown Corporal's grave) - 31 August 1916
• Corporal Henry Clarke #8439 in 10.C.33 (COG-BR 1980733) recovered at 57c.S.10.b.3.5 - 1 September 1916
• Private J Dempsey #826 in 10.C.17 (COG-BR 1980731) recovered at 57c.S.10.b.7.4 -1 September 1916

Also recovered from that general area but buried elsewhere are:

• Serjeant Arthur O'Connor #9367 in 35.J.8 at Serre Road Cemetery No. 2 (COG-BR 2050855) recovered at 57c.S.11.a.20.15 - 31 August 1916
• 2nd Lieutenant Antony Jameson in 2.H.9 at Quarry Cemetery (COG-BR 2330586) recovered at 57c.S.16.c.2.2 (one sector below S.10) - 1 September 1916

Now going back in time to mid-August, we have a number from the location where the battalion was in action:

 

surname	initials	death	rank	#	cemetery	grave	recovered
FINLAY	M	19-08-16	Private	'9705'	DIVE COPSE BRITISH CEMETERY, SAILLY-LE-SEC	I. C. 10.	unknown
MORAN	M	18-08-16	Private	'4930'	GUILLEMONT ROAD CEMETERY, GUILLEMONT	VI. L. 2.	57c.S.30.a.8.5
KAVANAGH	P	18-08-16	Private	'6/3030'	PERONNE ROAD CEMETERY, MARICOURT	II. F. 9.	57c.S.29.d.8.2
LAVILLE	S E B	18-08-16	Captain		PERONNE ROAD CEMETERY, MARICOURT	III. I. 16.	62c.A.4.b.6.5 ?
MOYNIHAN	D	18-08-16	Drummer	'7674'	SERRE ROAD CEMETERY No.2	XXV. E. 1.	57c.S.30.c.5.5
DOYLE	J	18-08-16	Private	'9651'	SERRE ROAD CEMETERY No.2	XXV. E. 2/4.	57c.S.30.c.5.5
DRUM	M	18-08-16	Private	'265'	SERRE ROAD CEMETERY No.2	XXV. E. 2/4.	57c.S.30.c.5.5
RING	J	18-08-16	Private	'7735'	SERRE ROAD CEMETERY No.2	XXV. E. 2/4.	57c.S.30.c.5.5

Edited 4 May , 2019 by laughton

[dickaren]

Hi Richard,

Black Watch Cemetery shown on the Body Density Map for this area. Map ref S10 was indeed swamped with remains.

Richard

[jay dubaya]

Regarding an old thread (I forget the soldiers name at present and when will search for the thread later). Several sets of remains from same map reference were reinterred at several cemeteries, from what I remember they were all recovered within weeks of each other. I believe it was a time sensitive task which meant that although they were recovered from the same location the receiving location could only take x amount on y day and one GRU was tasked with x and y cemeteries another GRU was tasked with z cemetery.

 

J

[dickaren]

6 hours ago, laughton said:

Serjeant Arthur O'Connor #9367 in 35.J.8 at Serre Road Cemetery No. 2 (COG-BR 2050855) recovered at 57c.S.11.a.20.15 - 31 August 1916

A late recovery -1931 - which was why they were buried at Serre Road No.2 which was still open for burials and not completed until 1934.

Richard

[laughton]

The question will come down to whether the situation was different when the men were recovered in the 57c.S.10 area distinctly different from those recovered in the 57c.S.30 area. On the surface it would appear that the S.10 group was from the end of the month and the S.30 group from the middle of the month. So where were they and what were they doing?

• As early as 12 August the battalion was at stationed Carnoy 62c.A.13, so south of the area, with working parties sent to did the trenches between Bernafay and Trones Wood, which places them in 57c.S.29. Even without "action" they had 19 casualties from the shell fire, however it appears none died.
• The battalion continued that work until they received orders to move on the 17 August to the Briqueterie, which places them in 62c.A.4.b, where the reference switches to the 13th Middlesex attack west of Arrow Head Copse at 57c.S.30.b, which places them on the east side of Trones Wood.
• The 2nd Leinsters were relieved on the 19th and they moved to Irish Alley 57c.S.29.c,d, which places them between Bernafay and Trones Wood, presumably in the trenches they were digging on the 12th. The casualty report includes Captain Laville, who we know was later recovered to the south at 62c.A.4.b.6.5, suggesting they took him back to the Briqueterie for burial (see table in earlier post #14). Second Lieutenant Handcock is also listed as KIA, who was recovered and buried with Captain Laville (COG-BR 2483806). Note the CWGC still has him listed as 3rd (Reserve) Battalion (CWGC Link) so that needs to be upgraded to show he was serving with the 2nd Battalion.
• The report of the 19th referencing the 18th records 10 OR killed and124 missing. The CWGC currently lists 15 dead on the 18th and one on the 19th (CWGC Link). The war diary also reports the dressing station was totally destroyed by shell fire on the night of the 18th. Unfortunately it does not say where it was located. They returned to the craters at Montauban 57c.S.27 when relieved on the 20th.

Unfortunately that does not provide any clue as to how the remains ended back at 57c.S.10 in the vicinity of what the body density maps show as Black Watch Cemetery. Why would they take the officer casualties south to the Briqueterie and the OR north to the cemetery? It may relate to when the bodies were collected and buried, so we may be dealing with a two-stage concentration process, first to Black Watch Cemetery and then to Caterpillar Valley Cemetery. There is no direct reference to the Black Watch Cemetery within the main CWGC text about Caterpillar (see this topic), nor any reference on the CWGC site to a cemetery by that name in France (just the one in Belgium).

 

The men that are reported in the 57c.S.10 area are those KIA in late August and early September. On 30 August 1916 they had moved back to the support trenches in the Longueval area 57c.S.17 near Deville Wood. The remains were recovered in the adjoining S.10 sector to the northwest, which makes more sense. The war diary reports an enemy attack on 31 August near Pont Street 57c.S.11. The end result was 13 OR killed and 22 wounded. On 1 September Second Lieutenants Jameson and O'Connor were killed in that area. They were both later recovered at 57c.S.16.c.2.2 (COG-BR 2330586). Second Lieutenant O'Connor joins Second Lieutenant Handcock as still listed by the CWGC as being in the 3rd Leinsters (CWGC Link). It may be that all the 3rd Battalion Leinster Regiment killed are incorrect on the CWGC, except those "at home" (CWGC Link).

 

It appears I may have to dig into the records of the Quarry Cemetery, Montauban as there were a number of small cemeteries concentrated there after the war. One was the Green Dump Cemetery, on the DAL at 57c.S.16.c.9.4. That one is not shown on the Body Density Map. (EDIT: see next post UK Richard found it!)

 

Was the Unknown Corporal one of the others killed on 31 August or 1 September 1916 that is listed on the Thiepval Memorial? Looks like they would need to be checked! The three Lance Corporals and 3 Serjeants need to be checked for sure. No idea if a "Drummer" could have been a Corporal? The CWGC has a tendency to "upgrade" the ranks of men, albeit mainly officers, when they are listed. The Medal Rolls Index Cards list Serjeants Beer and Cassidy as "Serjeants" but Wallace as a "Lance Serjeant" (MIC). The "Drummer" Hamilton is listed on the MIC as a Private, so we can exclude him. All three (3) of the Lance Corporals are still listed as Privates, so I would say that excludes them as well.

 

Is our Lance Serjeant Wallace really the Unknown Corporal - he is in the correct place at the right time. As a minimum it means we can't go forward with Corporal Gurney until we know that answer. It does not appear that his service record survived the London bombings of WWII. Is there any other way to check him out as to when he made Lance Serjeant? SDGW on Eddies lists him as a Serjeant (link). Same for SRH (link) but all of these may use the CWGC as the primary source. Any GWF Pals part of the association - I see they have a Facebook Group?

 

surname	forename	death	rank	#
BEER	JOSEPH HENRY	31-08-16	Serjeant	'1799'
CASSIDY	NICHOLAS	31-08-16	Serjeant	'9500'
WALLACE	GEORGE	31-08-16	Serjeant	'7675'
HAMILTON	JOSEPH	01-09-16	Drummer	'10297'
BRYANT	HENRY	01-09-16	Lance Corporal	'504'
KINSELLA	PATRICK	01-09-16	Lance Corporal	'3013'
LAVELLE	GARRETT	01-09-16	Lance Corporal	'5172'
CONNOR	MICHAEL	31-08-16	Private	'3206'
DOWNEY	DENIS	01-09-16	Private	'9593'
GALE	JOHN ALBERT	01-09-16	Private	'556'
GANNON	WILLIAM	01-09-16	Private	'10095'
KEARNS	JOHN	01-09-16	Private	'4640'
KELLY	PATRICK	31-08-16	Private	'4817'
KELLY	PATRICK	31-08-16	Private	'6674'
LAWLESS	THOMAS	01-09-16	Private	'10086'
MARTIN	MICHAEL	01-09-16	Private	'10463'
MULROONEY	JAMES	31-08-16	Private	'5298'
MURPHY	RICHARD	01-09-16	Private	'10016'
NOONAN	BERNARD	01-09-16	Private	'3363'
PICKETT	FREDERICK	01-09-16	Private	'1107'
ROCK	CHRISTOPHER	01-09-16	Private	'4919'
RUSSELL	CHRISTOPHER	01-09-16	Private	'10195'
SAMMON	DANIEL	01-09-16	Private	'1103'
SCANNELL	DANIEL	01-09-16	Private	'5359'
SMITH	FRANCIS	01-09-16	Private	'9954'
WOODS	EDWIN	31-08-16	Private	'665'

Edited 4 May , 2019 by laughton
edited re Green Dump

[dickaren]

30 minutes ago, laughton said:

It appears I may have to dig into the records of the Quarry Cemetery, Montauban as there were a number of small cemeteries concentrated there after the war. One was the Green Dump Cemetery, on the DAL at 57c.S.16.c.9.4. That one is not shown on the Body Density Map

 

Green Dump Cemetery is shown in 17d north east of Longueval Road Cemetery at south east edge of the village.

Richard

[laughton]

Thanks for that, hard to see! I thought it said "Cree".

 

The question of the Lance Serjeant takes us back to the discussions we have had before about "ranks" versus "appointments". Was it really Corporal George Wallace who had been appointed as a Lance Serjeant but was still wearing a Corporals rank (two chevrons?)?

[Jervis]

For what it is worth I have researched the casualties of this battalion in August and September. However, I must confess, I am not familiar with the notations and the general jargon being used in this post to be able to follow it with any real understanding. So I am not sure if I am of any use to you.  

 

However, what may be of use in your research is the casualties list published in the newspaper, which may be able to "batch" causalities together. 
  

• Corporal Frank Gurney was reported KIA in "The Times" on 21/09/1916  - corresponding with the action before Guillemont
• SGT George Wallace was reported KIA in the "Irish Times" 18/10/1916. - corresponding with the action in Delville wood. 

If useful, I can post the separate "casualties list" to "batch" the groups. 
I also have a copy of Stand to - by Capt. Hitchcock, who name many of the men in this post.    

Edited 4 May , 2019 by Jervis

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, laughton said:

• As early as 12 August the battalion was at stationed Carnoy 62c.A.13, so south of the area, with working parties sent to did the trenches between Bernafay and Trones Wood, which places them in 57c.S.29. Even without "action" they had 19 casualties from the shell fire, however it appears none died

 

 

 

There was actually 11 men KIA in this incident, most are buried in QUARRY CEMETERY, MONTAUBAN 

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, laughton said:

• The 2nd Leinsters were relieved on the 19th and they moved to Irish Alley 57c.S.29.c,d, which places them between Bernafay and Trones Wood, presumably in the trenches they were digging on the 12th. The casualty report includes Captain Laville, who we know was later recovered to the south at 62c.A.4.b.6.5, suggesting they took him back to the Briqueterie for burial (see table in earlier post #14). Second Lieutenant Handcock is also listed as KIA, who was recovered and buried with Captain Laville (COG-BR 2483806). Note the CWGC still has him listed as 3rd (Reserve) Battalion (CWGC Link) so that needs to be upgraded to show he was serving with the 2nd Battalion.

 

Captain Hitchcock's memoirs records the fact that both Laville and Handcock were killed on 18/08/16 and on the following morning, a Lieutenant Liston took charge of their bodies for burying.  

[Jervis]

On 03/05/2019 at 13:34, laughton said:

I should have reiterated that the reason that we know that the remains were taken north to Sector 57c.S.10 comes from the others that were concentrated into Caterpillar Valley Cemetery from the same location. These are noted in the previous posts. These were later in the month, so I will also go back and check mid-month when Corporal Gurney was killed.

• Corporal W Haggerty #7510 in 9.A.2 (COG-BR 1980716)  recovered at 57c.S.10.b.7.5 (beside the Unknown Corporal's grave) - 31 August 1916
• Corporal Henry Clarke #8439 in 10.C.33 (COG-BR 1980733) recovered at 57c.S.10.b.3.5 - 1 September 1916
• Private J Dempsey #826 in 10.C.17 (COG-BR 1980731) recovered at 57c.S.10.b.7.4 -1 September 1916

Also recovered from that general area but buried elsewhere are:

• Serjeant Arthur O'Connor #9367 in 35.J.8 at Serre Road Cemetery No. 2 (COG-BR 2050855) recovered at 57c.S.11.a.20.15 - 31 August 1916
• 2nd Lieutenant Antony Jameson in 2.H.9 at Quarry Cemetery (COG-BR 2330586) recovered at 57c.S.16.c.2.2 (one sector below S.10) - 1 September 1916

 

I believe all of the above named men were killed in Delville wood on 31st August & 1st September. 

[laughton]

2 hours ago, Jervis said:

There was actually 11 men KIA in this incident, most are buried in QUARRY CEMETERY, MONTAUBAN 

 

So those must be the men reported dead on 11 August 1916, so a conflict between the war diary and the CWGC (this link). I would have to agree with the CWGC that the COG-BR does state that death was on the 11th (COG-BR 2330581).

 

I had already made a note about that document, as it shows the remains at 62c.S.29.d.9.9 (sic 99) which I presume they meant 57c instead of 62c? If that is true, there are a number of preceding COG-BR pages that are also incorrect.

 

2 hours ago, Jervis said:

I am not familiar with the notations and the general jargon

 

Ask away, for any item where you need me to explain the jargon. We all start somewhere. If it is about the army units and ranks, remember I am Canadian so not my area of expertise by any means - I learn daily! If it is about the CWGC documents and what I am doing, you may want to see our CWFSG wiki page about how we started all of this process (http://cefresearch.ca/wiki/index.php/The_Unknown). But ask any questions at any time.

 

The big question for me now is when did Corporal George Wallace become Lance Serjeant George Wallace and why now does the CWGC report him as Serjeant George Wallace. Based on the location of the 2nd Leinsters, it makes far more sense that the unknown is Corporal George Wallace than Corporal Frank Gurney:

• If we don't know the answer, we will always wonder how Gurney's remains got to the area to the north. I now doubt that they did, so without an answer, that would kill the report.
• If Wallace was still wearing Corporal insignia, then he is the candidate, and the only one. We would have to prove that to the CWGC, not an easy task.

Anything that anyone has that deals with that issue would be of great assistance. His service record, or some other document about promotions, is what is needed.