Sgt Stripes Posted 16 August , 2018 Share Posted 16 August , 2018 Hi. Does anyone have any information on Lt Col G E Sayce. I came across his name while undergoing some local sports research in the Lancashire Cheshire area. I have no other information. Many Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 16 August , 2018 Admin Share Posted 16 August , 2018 (edited) Can't find much. His MIC advises only that he was Mentioned in Despatches. No service record for him at TNA so presumably served beyond the war and his record retained by MOD (seems unlikely if he was already a Pensioner in 1916) Image courtesy of Ancestry free access Edited 16 August , 2018 by DavidOwen re record Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 16 August , 2018 Admin Share Posted 16 August , 2018 (edited) His MID in the Gazette here https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29919/supplement/945 (Doesn't add much) See page 943 for title page, David Edited 16 August , 2018 by DavidOwen 943 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 16 August , 2018 Admin Share Posted 16 August , 2018 In the December 1916 Army Lists he appears in Territorial Force Reserve, Royal Engineers, Divisional Engineers, West Lancashire as Lt-Col.,Temporary Duty (TD) and "p" which I am not sure of but may refer to "Pensioner in HM Armed Forces" according to an abbreviation site I use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 16 August , 2018 Share Posted 16 August , 2018 His full name was George Edward Sayce. In civilian life he was a farmer. Gazetted 2nd Lt. on 5 March 1890 Volunteer Corps, Royal Engineers, (2nd. Lancashire) https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26029/page/1202 He died at Widnes on 15 January 1940, aged 82 years. From the Liverpool Evening Express 15 January 1940 and 16 January 1940 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 16 August , 2018 Admin Share Posted 16 August , 2018 Thanks Harry, it all makes sense now. Searched for a record of him in Officers prior to 1913 on TNA - nothing found. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 16 August , 2018 Share Posted 16 August , 2018 Very small entry for him in "Who Was Who, Volume III, 1929-1940" Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 16 August , 2018 Admin Share Posted 16 August , 2018 Here is his CMG award https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29916/supplement/924 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 16 August , 2018 Share Posted 16 August , 2018 6 hours ago, DavidOwen said: In the December 1916 Army Lists he appears in Territorial Force Reserve, Royal Engineers, Divisional Engineers, West Lancashire as Lt-Col.,Temporary Duty (TD) and "p" which I am not sure of but may refer to "Pensioner in HM Armed Forces" according to an abbreviation site I use. Ooops! p. on the Army List signifies the man holds a Certificate of Proficiency relevant to his rank T.D. signifies he holds the Territorial Decoration The TD superseded the old Volunteer Decoration (V.D.) in 1908, so he must have been awarded this medal 1908-1916. For your future reference, every Army List has a Key to the Abbreviations. For the Dec 1916 monthly list it's on pages xxxvi-xxviii - no need to hunt abbreviations websites Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 16 August , 2018 Admin Share Posted 16 August , 2018 16 minutes ago, MBrockway said: Ooops! p. on the Army List signifies the man holds a Certificate of Proficiency relevant to his rank T.D. signifies he holds the Territorial Decoration The TD superseded the old Volunteer Decoration (V.D.) in 1908, so he must have been awarded this medal 1908-1916. For your future reference, every Army List has a Key to the Abbreviations. For the Dec 1916 monthly list it's on pages xxxvi-xxviii - no need to hunt abbreviations websites Mark Cheers Mark, always learning here! David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 16 August , 2018 Share Posted 16 August , 2018 There might be more in the 'Official Directory' pages towards the end of Gore's Directories of Liverpool, which included local TF units and formations. I have the 1914 pages which have no reference to this officer, but an earlier edition might show what unit he was with. My pages are numbered around 2275, so the entry would be at a similar place in another volume. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 16 August , 2018 Share Posted 16 August , 2018 Hie was Major i/c 2nd West Lancs Field Coy, RE (TF) in the 1909 Annual Army List, but they seem to be based at St Helen's, which seems to sit neither in the Liverpool nor Manchester Kelly's/Gore's Directories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 16 August , 2018 Share Posted 16 August , 2018 He also appears in Kelly's Directory of the Titled, Landed and Official Classes, 1921 where the details are substantially the same as in Who Was Who, quoted above, except that he was then living at Halebank, Widnes. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 16 August , 2018 Share Posted 16 August , 2018 Promoted to command the West Lancs RE (TF) in April 1913 ... and appears as such in the 1914 and 1915 Annual Army Lists. 55th (West Lancs) Division had a very confused start to the war with the infantry being sent out piecemeal to other units. A Pal more expert in matters sapper than I, can perhaps let us know what happened to the divisional RE? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Stripes Posted 16 August , 2018 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2018 (edited) Thank you all very much for your help. He seems to have been involved in sport starting around 1890 to around 1910 playing cricket for Garston, Hough Green, Halebank, Gorton and Hale clubs , all in and around the Widnes area. Later in around 1920 his name appears as a judge at athletic meetings. I have no information on his military service so your help has really helped me. Sgt Stripes Edited 16 August , 2018 by Sgt Stripes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 16 August , 2018 Admin Share Posted 16 August , 2018 59 minutes ago, MBrockway said: Promoted to command the West Lancs RE (TF) in April 1913 ... By December 2016 he had been passed over (by precedence?) in favour of Lt Col J P Fraser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 16 August , 2018 Share Posted 16 August , 2018 The London Gazette notification for his Territorial Decoration https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28425/page/7355 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayce Posted 13 February , 2020 Share Posted 13 February , 2020 Hi, Just read your posts. I am his great grandson. I was born 10 years after his death, but my father always referred to him as a Victorian gentleman, who liked children to be seen and not heard. He had an inauspicious start to life as he was born in Bedwas, South wales where his father Edward Morris Sayce was a railway engineer working on the Hereford and Newport railway. Unfortunately he died aged just 35 when George was just 3 years old.. I was told he was also a Tory councillor in Widnes and Sayce St was named after him. My grandfather, Roger was very good sportsman at all ball sports playing 1st class rugby for Bath. So his love of sports obviously come from his own father.. Please keep me posted on any further information. John Sayce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 13 February , 2020 Admin Share Posted 13 February , 2020 Welcome to the forum John, I have removed your email to reduce the chances of it being scraped by bots etc. Once you have made two posts you will have access to the forum's private message system. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 February , 2020 Share Posted 13 February , 2020 (edited) Some background history to the West Lancashire (TF) Division Royal Engineers from Lomas's booklet of 1912 ... Major Sayce was Officer Commanding the 2nd Field Coy, who were *possibly* based at Deacon Road in Widnes. I have not yet found any trace on the historic OS maps of a drill hall in Deacon Road. Mark Edited 13 February , 2020 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 February , 2020 Share Posted 13 February , 2020 On 16/08/2018 at 18:30, Ron Clifton said: He also appears in Kelly's Directory of the Titled, Landed and Official Classes, 1921 where the details are substantially the same as in Who Was Who, quoted above, except that he was then living at Halebank, Widnes. Ron He's at Bank End Farm in Halebank in the 1911 Census. ~54 years, farmer, born in Maesycwmmer, Monmouthshire. Also his wife, Mary Jane, ~46yrs, and three sons - Norris, Roger (John's grandfather) and Lewis. The marriage was twenty years old in 1911, with four children, all still living, so the eldest had either left home, or was elsewhere on census night. Maesycwmmer lies in Bedwas civil parish and is about 3 miles N of the village of Bedwas. Bank End Farm was on Mersey View Road not far from the chippy, but is now under light industrial units and warehousing. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D J Sayce Posted 28 February , 2021 Share Posted 28 February , 2021 On 13/02/2020 at 07:05, John Sayce said: Hi, Just read your posts. I am his great grandson. I was born 10 years after his death, but my father always referred to him as a Victorian gentleman, who liked children to be seen and not heard. He had an inauspicious start to life as he was born in Bedwas, South wales where his father Edward Morris Sayce was a railway engineer working on the Hereford and Newport railway. Unfortunately he died aged just 35 when George was just 3 years old.. I was told he was also a Tory councillor in Widnes and Sayce St was named after him. My grandfather, Roger was very good sportsman at all ball sports playing 1st class rugby for Bath. So his love of sports obviously come from his own father.. Please keep me posted on any further information. John Sayce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D J Sayce Posted 28 February , 2021 Share Posted 28 February , 2021 Hello John It has been very interesting reading all this info about Lt Col Sayce. Edward Morris was my 2nd great grand uncle, but as you know sadly died young as did lots of others from the Sayce family from that era, you may know that he did some work with the Crumlin viaduct, if you want any info let me know. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayce Posted 28 February , 2021 Share Posted 28 February , 2021 Hi David, Lovely to hear from you. I see that you have been doing family history research as well! It has been my lockdown project and it would great if we could share info. I'm guessing that you are John Griffith Beavan Sayce's great great grandson? Bye for now! John, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D J Sayce Posted 28 February , 2021 Share Posted 28 February , 2021 Hello John Yes I am, will get back and catch up next couple days. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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