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Remembered Today:

Lt R D Meadows MGC


Gareth Davies

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Has anyone got anything on this chap?  Only entries I can find on Ancestry are Navy. Not on CWGC so survived.  Any help appreciated.

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Best I can offer you is at the moment is 2nd Lt George Denis Meadows, MGC. Went to France 25/10/1918.

 

Where have you found R.D.?

 

Edit - Cancel that. Just found the cigarette case.

Edited by IPT
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Yes, that’s where I found it.

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Something not quite right here.

 

I can't see him in the London Gazette or the National Archives. In fact, there is only one R D Meadows of military age on the 1911 census, and he was a private in the the Gloucestershire Regiment (your naval man was WW2, I think).

 

I can only think that it was an engraving error, or someone was telling porkies.

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Could the Gloom have been commissioned into the MGC?

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I can't find him on the Officer records at TNA either (but that isn't saying much!)

There is a Raymond Meadows but not listed as in MGC.

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5 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

Could the Gloom have been commissioned into the MGC?

 

Doubtful. He was a house painter who was found drunk and disorderly in 1915, when guarding a train station at Cholsey.  Also the problem with lack of gazette and officer's file.

 

Unless he had a touch of the Percy Toplis about him, and the folks back home had a whip-round?

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3 minutes ago, IPT said:

 

Doubtful. He was a house painter who was found drunk and disorderly in 1915, when guarding a train station at Cholsey.  Also the problem with lack of gazette and officer's file.

 

Unless he had a touch of the Percy Toplis about him, and the folks back home had a whip-round?

Now if I had the faintest idea what you two are talking about.....

.....I probably still wouldn't have a clue!

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He does indeed.

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Let’s assume that the first initial is wrong and he is   George Dennis Meadows. A man of this name was born in Oxford in 1888 and died in Cheltenham in 1978. The London Gazette of 11 July 1918 shows a man of the same name being commissioned into the MGC effective from 26 June 1918. 

 

GD Meadows, as would be expected, appears in the November 1918 Army List, but there is no RD Meadows. There is however an R,  RS and RT Meadows but non have any connections with the MGC. That leaves two possibilities it seems to me , the first being that RD Meadows was killed or suffered some sought of wound, injury or a medical condition that caused his discharge before the end of the war.

 

TR

Edited by Terry_Reeves
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Nothing that looks possible on the CWGC site.  So injury is a possibility.

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I hesitate to suggest this but is the cigarette case genuine?  I’m no expert or dealer but I have seen quite a bit of engraved silver, and for what it’s worth the thing that struck me on finding the photographs of the item was that the style of the lettering, indeed the whole design, seemed much later than 1916.  It just doesn’t look hand engraved to me and the lettering seems a very modern font.  For a start the oval enclosing the MGC badge doesn’t look right for the period, to my eyes.  Nor does the engraving seem to have the patina or wear from polishing one would expect - as far as one can tell from the photos.

 

Searching online for ‘ “silver cigarette case” regiment’ (or corps, or lieutenant) pulls up a number of examples of cigarette cases with a British military connection.  This one... doesn’t look like any I looked at.  It is also in very good condition - most have a lot of wear and tear.  There are possible good explanations for that, but if one was of a suspicious mind one might think that it would be easier to retrospectively engrave a case in good condition than it would one which had been bashed about in someone’s pocket.

 

So I would question whether the engraving was a later, possibly much later addition.  In which case, there is a possibility that Lt R.D. Meadows might not have existed.  If he did exist, then the case could be commemorative rather than having seen action in his pocket - if that makes a difference to its value.  But I could be very wrong.  RDM might have been killed in 1916 and his new and undamaged cigarette case sent home to a grieving family who got it engraved with the year of his death and never used it (the fact it still has its elastic suggests it wasn’t used - none of the half dozen or so cigarette cases I’ve looked at recently still have theirs).  But it is odd in that case if you can’t find him via the usual sources.

 

If genuine, I think you can discount the idea that the engraver might have got the initials entirely wrong.  Why would anyone pay for a cigarette case with the wrong name on?  The engraver might have omitted an initial, if the commissioning donor was not a family member and was unaware of a third initial, and it’s possible that Meadows might have “dropped” an initial himself, but I’m sure he would have had “R.D.” in there somewhere.

 

I do hope that you didn’t buy this yourself and that I’ve cast doubts on your new acquisition.  If you have, a reputable jeweller with an interest in antiques, or dealer in antique silver, should be able to tell you very quickly whether the engraving is old or not and how it was done.   If you didn’t buy it, you might get an opinion from the photos.  If it IS old, there’s a good chance that RDM existed.  If it isn’t....

 

This is not to suggest that the most recent seller sold it in anything other than good faith.

 

Piers

Edited by pierssc
Clarification
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I don't disagree but why fake something with a name of a person that doesn't seem to exist?

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Because a plain cigarette case is worth little.  One attractive to a collector of MGC memorabilia may be worth more.

Edited by pierssc
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Yes. But surely one would pick the name of someone who definitely existed?

 

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Why bother if someone will buy it anyway?

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With a fake name there’s no chance of a family member querying it.

Edited by pierssc
Typo, then made more definite.
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From a different era and completely different style of piece but the same points as to authenticity apply: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/field-equipment-accessories-third-reich/luftwaffe-cigarette-case-623905/

 

I would think that units such as the MGC and RFC, both short lived and collectable, would be prime ground for counterfeiting.  

 

I didn’t mention it in the final version of my first post, but I am also concerned about the lack of reference in the description to hall marks.  If British, and silver, it should have marks which would verify the date of the case itself.  I couldn’t spot any on the photos either - though they may be there - I would expect to see them on the inside.  It might be EPNS (silver plate) in which case there wouldn’t be a year mark but there should be makers marks which may point to a certain era if one can identify the maker - usually the work of a few moments online.  One would expect a British officer to buy British made silver - it is not inconceivable that he might buy foreign silver abroad, but it is cause for querying it.  As I said earlier it is possible that the case itself is of the right era, though the engraving is not.

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It's certainly a bit of a  mystery. Thanks for your help.

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On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 15:03, Terry_Reeves said:

Let’s assume that the first initial is wrong and he is   George Dennis Meadows. A man of this name was born in Oxford in 1888 and died in Cheltenham in 1978. The London Gazette of 11 July 1918 shows a man of the same name being commissioned into the MGC effective from 26 June 1918. 

 

GD Meadows, as would be expected, appears in the November 1918 Army List, but there is no RD Meadows. There is however an R,  RS and RT Meadows but non have any connections with the MGC. That leaves two possibilities it seems to me , the first being that RD Meadows was killed or suffered some sought of wound, injury or a medical condition that caused his discharge before the end of the war.

 

TR

Looking at the 1918 Army List for MGC there are three Meadows

S.C. Meadows.15/9/1916 (commissioned 19th Battalion London Reg.) Lt.

G.D Meadows 26/6/1918 Temp 2nd Lt.

A. Meadows 26/4/1917 Temp 2nd Lt.

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The date on the case is 1916 which I think rules out GDM and AM.  And I don't really buy the typo argument, even if it was being done by a friend as a gift to RDM, although I do accept that it is theoretically possible.  RDM (if he existed) isn't listed with the CWGC so Terry's suggestion of injury and discharge seems to me a possibility.

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It could be worse. We were burgled 20 odd years ago and one of the items taken was a cigarette case that belonged to my grandfather who was in the MGC. It was hall marked (but I don't think I have the details). The important thing for me was that it had his initials on it and the date 10 7 1917 which i know was the date of his captaincy. It had something inside but I've forgotten now. I doubt if the thief understood the initials or date and without any regimental badge / crest the police told me that (sadly) it was probably melted down for scrap.

 

Edited by JulianB
date correction
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