German shot down Palestine

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

 

I am looking at who or how these airmen died?

 

Kinsberg Rüdiger von         (pilot) Airforce
 

Grabiat Otto        observer Airforce
 

 

I only know they were killed or shot down together around June 1918

 

Can you give any other detaisl like what Sqn and details of the deaths?

 

Cheers

S.B

[hmsk212]

Hi

 

From " Casualties of the German Air Service 1914 - 1920  by Franks, Bailey & Duiven

 

Ltn Rudiger Frhr. von Kunsberg  FA 304b  8th June 1918  Tulkern, Palestine

 

Steve

[Stuart24]

Hi Steve,

 

The Palestine Brigade War Diary records two actions on 8 June 1918:

 

An AFC aircraft forced an enemy aircraft to force land six miles SE of Amman

 

Lt. A. D. Gledhill of 111 Sqn in Nieuport Scout B1681 attacked a formation of two enemy two-seaters and three Albatros D.Vs just east of Tabor.  He engaged one of the Abatri just north of Tul Keram, and shot it down, reporting that the tail fell off as it dived down into clouds.

 

It could be the Leutnant died of wounds from an earlier action.  On 4 June a British 'scout' forced a two-seater to land in a wadi five miles behind enemy lines, and on the 7 June Lieutenant R C Jenkins of 111 Sqn attacked a formation of four D.Vs and two two-seaters.  He claimed two of the D.Vs shot down, but as with Gledhill's fight, and observer in one of the two-seaters may have been hit by a stray round.

 

Cheers

Stuart

[Slingo]

Dear Sirs,

The Royal Bavarian Army roles can be viewed via ancestry.de ( fee required )

FA 304 b is a Bavarian unit, commanded by Captain Franz Walz (Pour-le-Merite recipient 9.8.1918 , 7 aerial victories ) 

I'll look it up whether Grabiat Otto is to be found.

The roles are written in German Sript, not Latin.

 

beste Grüße, Gunther

[Guest]

Mates,

 

Thank you for checking.

 

My latest sources say that Otto Grabiat was a driver possibly ground crew FA 304b, so I am unsure if he was with Künsberg or Kinsberg who also is shown as;

 

Künsberg (Kinsberg) Rüdiger Freiherr Von    Lt    Pilot Airforce Jasta 304b 9-17 to (Jasta 55) Jagdstaffel F1 (shown on grave)  also reported as Jasta 303     (1898 - KIA 8-6-18) Bavarian reported KIA 8-6-18 shot down near Jaffa & or near Tul Karem by Lt Gledhill 111 Sqn RFC
 

The photo shown them being bured together 

Photographs of crashed German aircraft of the 304th including the wreckage of von Künsberg's bi-plane have been archived at the SAB archives in Germany, but is unclear whether von Künsberg died during a landing mishap or otherwise, as this photograph describes this funeral as "von Künsberg and Driver (Kraftfarher)".

 

Sorry to add the the confusion

 

S.B

[Slingo]

Dear Sirs

Leutnant Rüdiger Freiherr von Künsberg, *20.02.1898 in Munich, FA 304 b, died while flying for Jasta 1F; during an aerial fight on the 8th of June 1918 his petrol tank was hit and exploded.

Eye-whitnesses saw him falling out of his plane near Tulkarm. Jasta F consisted of 7 Albatros D.III in the beginning (Felmy).

The 3.4 kg - volume "Unsere Luftstreitkräfte 1914-1918" by Lt.Gen. Walter von Eberhardt lists over 11.000 fallen officers, NCO.s and men of the German Air Forces.

A Otto Graviat or Grabiat is not listed; I did not find a Grabiat or Graviat in the Royal Bavarian Army roles - only a man living at Magdeburg (profession locksmith ) in 1915.

 

beste Grüße, Gunther

[Slingo]

Dear Sirs,

von Künsberg, sick of malaria managed a crash landing at Afule on 10th of November 1917.

He flew from Tamman to Damaskus and back ; that overstrained his health and caused the accident.

 

kind regards, Gunther

 

quotes from: Hans Werner Neulen "Die Adler des Kaisers im Orient 1915-1919"

 

Jasta 55: 1.1.1918 at Schneidemühl, Prussia, sent to Jenin , dubbed " 1F " in Palestine; Oberleutnant Gerhard felmy became squadron leader.

[Slingo]

Dear Gentlemen,

Ancestry being very slow yesterday I tried it again: there is one Otto Graviat shown in the officila casualty list: Otto Graviat, died of disease on 11.1.18 at Magdeburg.

> Künsberg was transferred from a Bavarian unit to a Prussian unit; therefore we will not find Otto Grabiat/Graviat in the Bavarian roles, if he was part of Prussian Jasta55 aca 1F .

> two men buried at the same time does not necessarily tell that they were from the same unit

> "driver" definitely tells that he was a) a ground crew member  b) member of a transport unit ( Lt.Gen. Eberhardts 11.000 + list is not complete, as he tells in his large volume, but if

Grabiat was not part of an air force unit, he will not be listed either )

> Künsberg died as a fighter pilot in a single seater

 

My next step is to ask Dr. Schwake / Nazareth for help, since he did indeep research on casualties and their background.

 

kind regards, Gunther Erben

[michaeldr]

On 10/08/2018 at 04:36, stevebecker said:

Kinsberg Rüdiger von         (pilot) Airforce

Grabiat Otto        observer Airforce

 

I only know they were killed or shot down together around June 1918

 

The names on the Jenin memorial seen here http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/gwa/document/9279/5274

include Kunsberg, but not Grabiat, possibly indicating that they did not die in the same incident

 

Edited 11 August , 2018 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

This photograph taken at Nazareth will also be of interest [links via flickr.com]

 

 and

 

Edited 11 August , 2018 by michaeldr

[Guest]

Mates,

 

Thank you for the details.

 

I guess your right just because they were buried together they may not have died together.

 

Stuart

 

I did notice these losses during June 1918 other then Künsberg 

 

Koopmann Gerhard    Lt deR   Pilot Airforce Jasta 302    1917-18    (1892 - KIA 13-6-18) reported shot down with Kreusler by Lt Paul & Weir 1 Sqn AFC near Jenin
Kreusler Erich    Lt    Observer Airforce Jasta 302    1917-18    (1895 - KIA 13-6-18) reported shot down with Koopmann by Lt Paul & Weir 1 Sqn AFC near Jenin
 

While these are known to be brought down during May 1918

 

Bernhard Kasimir    Lt    Observer Airforce Jasta 302    1917-18    (1888 - KIA 11-5-18) reported shot down with Gonnella by Lt Palmer 111 Sqn RFC at Jerusalem
Breitenbach Bruno    Lt    Pilot Airforce jasta 304b    1917-18    Bavarian shot down with Lt Saradeth 24-5-18 
Geissler Louis    Sgt    ground crew Airforce Jasta 303 7-17     1917-18     (1892 - DoA 25-5-18) at Samakh shown He belonged to the ground staff of the aviation department and crashed in the Jordan
Genzel Willi    Lt    observer Airforce Jasta 300        (1891 - DoW 6-5-18) reported WIA 14-4-18 with Vfz Knevels in dog fight with Lt Bott 111 Sqn RFC near Tabsor
Gonnella Adolf    Lt    Pilot Airforce Jasta 302    1917-18    (1897 - KIA 11-5-18) from FAA 212 reported shot down with Bernhard by Lt Palmer 111 Sqn RFC at Jerusalem
Kaeppler Karl    Vfw    Observer Airforce Jasta 300         (1892 - DoW 8-5-18) at Nazareth reported in dog fight by Lt Smith & Mustard or Tonkin & Camm 1 Sqn AFC near Tul Karem
Kunz Hermann Karl Ludwig    Lt    Pilot Airforce (Jasta 55) Jagdstaffel F1 3-18    1918's    from Jasta 7 (3 victories) - claimed shot down two planes 7-18 & 15-5-18 & balloon 28-4-18 & 8-5-18 possibly flown Albatross D3 (7416/17) at AWM in Canberra shown 6 victories or 3 victories?
Meirederks or Meyerdirks or Maierdirch    Lt    Pilot Airforce & shown combined Jasta 300 & (Jasta 55) Jagdstaffel F1 3-18  T/CO (from Felmy) 5-18     1918's    shot down British RE 8 25-4-18 near Nablus shown killed 1918 reported accidental crash when plane wings collapsed and crashed shown KIA 4-5-18 on grave
Saradeth     Lt    observer Airforce Jasta 304b    1917-18    Bavarian shot down with Lt Breitenbach 24-5-18 
Schneidewind Gustav    Vfw    Pilot Airforce Jasta 305 3-18 to (Jasta 55) Jagdstaffel F1    1918's    from FAR 29 & FAR 305 to Jasta 17 (4 victories) - claimed 3 victories 2x balloons 8-5-18 & 9-5-18 and EA 5-18 in Palestine
Wolff Richard    Lt    Observer Airforce Jasta 300         (1892 - DoW 8-5-18) reported wounded by Lt Smith & Mustard or Tonkin & Camm 1 Sqn AFC near Nazareth

 

July 1918

 

Heindorf Willy    Flieger    Airforce        (died 9-7-18)  grave at Tarabya Istanbul 
Kuchenbuch     Lt    Pilot Airforce Jasta 303 7-17     1917-18     (18? - KIA 30-7-18) reported Rumpler C with Lt Wegner was shot down by Lt Kenny & Sutherland 1 Sqn AFC near Ed Damia/ Jordan
Sass Wilhelm    Flieger Naval    Airforce possibly German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung)         (1892 - died 18-7-18 at Dardanelles) grave at Tarabya Istanbul 
Wegener Hermann    Cpl    ground crew Airforce Jasta 301 7-17     1917-18     (1897 - died 16-7-18) reported died at Aleppo
Wegner Hermann    Lt    Observer Airforce Jasta 303 7-17     1917-18     (1893 - KIA 30-7-18) reported Rumpler C with Lt Kuchenbuch was shot down by Lt Kenny & Sutherland 1 Sqn AFC near Ed Damia/ Jordan

 

Cheers

S.B

[Slingo]

Hullo Steve,

Dr. Schwake kindly replied:

Otto Graviat, born in Westerhüsen near Magdeburg on the 11th of January 1898 was a driver in 

Armee-Kraftwagenkolonne 711 (Prussian unit )

In the morning of 9th of June 1918 he died of typhus/Fleckfieber in Nazareth military hospital

aged 20 years.

Together with the Royal Bavarian Air Force pilot Freiherr von Künsberg he was buried at Nazareth.

Documents are to be found on Ancestry.de .

 

kind regards, Gunther

[Slingo]

PS: Otto Graviat

 the entry in the casualty-list is msileading :   11.1.   + died of disease

He was born th 11.1.1898.

 

kind regards , Gunther

 

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Many thanks, its nice to find details on this man.

 

Thanks for checking for me

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[Slingo]

ad Steve

You're welcome