WWI Pembroke II Mystery - Burial in France

[Diane. Toronto]

My great uncle died aboard the HMS Pembroke II from pneumonia.  However, he was buried in a communal cemetery in Paray le Mondial, France.

Does anyone have a suggestion why he would not have been sent home to Norfolk?

 

 

[horatio2]

HMS PEMBROKE II was an accounting base and your GU was probably serving in another ship/unit in France and was 'borne on the books' of PEMBROKE (for pay and admin purposes). I assume he was Officers' Steward 2nd Class Thomas GOODERSON.

[Diane. Toronto]

Thank you for passing this information on.  Looking at my GU Thomas Gooderson records, he was stationed on a number of vessals, about one year on each:  Europa II, Grafton Wildfire, etc., and returning to Pembroke in between.  Do you think personnel were sent back to the Pembroke after each assignment?  Maybe Thomas was recorded on the Pembroke, but was not actually there, i.e. for security/paperwork purposes.  It is still unclear to me.  He was on Europa II to 4 Oct 1918, then it "seems" he died on the Pembroke II 23 Oct 1918.  Maybe he died on the Europa?  By the way, do you know what a Steward 2nd Class would be doing occupationally?  Thanks. . .I have been looking for a long time.  Lichfield Museum suggested this site.

 

By the way, how did you know the name of my Gt Uncle?

[Diane. Toronto]

Also I am interested to know what is meant by a "ship/unit" in France.  Would this be a land base or operation situation.  Thanks

 

[horatio2]

Your GU is the only candidate among the two buried at Paray.

It is inconceivable that, if he had died in Chatham Barracks/Hospital, he would have been taken to France for burial near Lyons.

One scenario is that he was in transit back to UK from HMS EUROPA (in the Aegean), probably having landed at Marseilles. In this case he would have been transferred to the books of PEMBROKE for passage home and not attached to any ship or unit tendered to PEMBROKE. He probably succumbed to Spanish Flu on the way home.

Stewards did what the name describes, be they stewards in the RN, in ocean liners or  airliners.

[Diane. Toronto]

Thank you so much "Horatio."  It totally adds up now.  I do remember my grandmother mentioning that the family were expecting Thomas' arrival home on leave, but couldn't initially understand why he did not arrive.  My family have been wondering a long time about this.  It is so kind of you to enlighten me.

 

Diane

[johnboy]

Men who died in service were very seldom sent home to be buried. ome who died in the UK may have been if the NOK could afford the transport charges

[horatio2]

That is probably what happened. The train route from Marseilles via Lyons to the Channel ports was a well-used one for men returning overland from the Med/Aegean.

Glad to help.

[Diane. Toronto]

Another helpful point.  I do remember my grandmother saying that "they" (I thought she meant her family) checked at train stations along his route home trying to find out if he had been taken off the train.  I assumed she had meant in England, but that didn't add up and I wondered if it was correct or I mis-remembered.  I guess when your grandmother tells you something, you had better believe it.  Bless her and thanks again.

[Guest]

2 suggestions:

 

1)  Paray is a communal churchyard- ie within the ambit of the French civil authorities. Thus-hopefully- there should be a French civil death certificate for him, which may/should be on Ancestry. Worth giving Ancestry a good thumping.  Otherwise, a letter to the local mairie at Paray may assist

 

2) Paray is in the middle of nowhere and some way off from the main French railway line through the Rhone valley-which basically follows the river from Lyon to Macon.  The only other casualty buried there is from April 1919 and a man from RAMC-which suggests either that he met a similar fate (snuffed it en route)  or that there was some sort of French military hospital at Paray-perhaps, as a slim chance, with British RAMC personnel there as well. It seems an irony both of popular memory and present day tourism, that in some ways the south of France (Provence) had more Brits. there during the war years, with convalescence  and transit to Med. and ME, than at any other time until Ryanair/Easyjet came along. But the British military presence all over the south of France in the war is a big unknown-(at least to me.)

 

     He is on the naval casualty list for Wednesday 23rd October 1918 as Pembroke II, which has 4 names. The other 3 all died in the UK. All are noted as died of illness.

 

  Yes, there was a French military hospital at Paray :

 

 

PARAY-le-MONIAL Hôpital 34 pensionnat libre de garçons St-Hugues (Saône-et-Loire). Ouvert du 18 août 1914 au 6 avril 1919 110 à 161 lits

Edited 10 August , 2018 by Guest

[Diane. Toronto]

Thanks for this information.  It is now more of a mystery why my GU turned up in Paray.  I know that on October 4, 1918, he was on the Europa II. 

However, the only information I can find concerns the Europa but not Europa II.  Europa II is not listed as either a land base

https://www.nmrn.org.uk/shore-establishments

or vessel (checked many sites).  At least this would indicate a starting point. 

[Diane. Toronto]

One other point.  Under Europa II in naval record is a date, 1 Jan 1918 to 4 Oct 1918:  Europa II...(M18). Does anyone know what (M18) means?

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, Diane. Toronto said:

One other point.  Under Europa II in naval record is a date, 1 Jan 1918 to 4 Oct 1918:  Europa II...(M18). Does anyone know what (M18) means?

There was a monitor called M18 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_M18

 

Craig

[horatio2]

It would appear that HMS M.18 was a tender to EUROPA II, based on Mudros (Lemnos Island).

[Diane. Toronto]

Hello Horatio.  Do you why the record lists Europa II.  Were there two Europas?  What do you mean by "tender" please.  Was it just a way of attaching a job to a ship which was executing an operation in the same area?

[horatio2]

Only one HMS EUROPA but HMS EUROPA II was the second division of the pay office in the cruiser HMS EUROPA, the flagship at Mudros. All the (smaller) ships whose pay and admin was conducted by EUROPA II were known as 'tenders' to that ship. Your GU was 'borne on the books' of EUROPA II but was physically serving in M.18. This is usually shown in records as "EUROPA II (M.18)" (or similar).

Edited 10 August , 2018 by horatio2

[corisande]

UK, Royal Navy and Royal Marine War Graves Roll, 1914-1919

 

Name    Thomas Gooderson
Rank    Off Std 2nd
Birth Date    11 Oct 1894
Birth Place    Downham
Branch of Service    Royal Navy
Cause of Death    Died from disease
Official Number Port Division    L.2643
Death Date    23 Oct 1918
Ship or Unit    HMS Pembroke
Location of Grave    Not recorded
Name and Address of Cemetery    Paray-le-monial Communal Cemetery, France
Relatives Notified and Address    Father: Thomas Gooderson Spring Lane, Marham, Downham Market, Norfolk

 

 

[corisande]

There is a photo of him with his mother on an Ancestry tree

 

[Diane. Toronto]

Oh my. . .thank you for the pictures.  I have no pictures and this is so unexpected.  It looks like I am on an upward learning curve.  For instance, it looks like Thomas was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers (his brother Robert was also) but did not realize this would be attached to the navy.  Could you please advise the best route for learning more about my GU and operations in WWI?

 

I can't thank you enough for the info and pics.  My family will be very interested.

[horatio2]

30 minutes ago, Diane. Toronto said:

For instance, it looks like Thomas was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers (his brother Robert was also) but did not realize this would be attached to the navy.

This sounds a bit unlikely. From what I can tell (without the benefit of seeing his RN record), Thomas enlisted in the RN in 1911, aged about seventeen. When was he supposed to be serving in the RDF? Thomas was not "attached to the navy". He was a naval rating from 1911 to 1918, unless there is information to the contrary which I have not seen. Can you post his Kew ADM 188 ledger record here? That would be a great help.

 

Edit:- I would just add that his three WW1 medals were claimed by his father after the war and these were issued to him by the Admiralty - not the War Office.

Edited 10 August , 2018 by horatio2

[tootrock]

According to his papers the cause of death was Influenza and Broncho Pneumonia.

 

Martin

[Diane. Toronto]

Thomas Gooderson 11-Oct-1894 to 23-Oct-18 was born in Downham, Norfolk and was

Steward 2^nd Class, HMS “Pembroke” Royal Navy

Died 23^rd October, 1918 – buried at Paray le Monial, France

Service Number L2643 – Royal Navy - PARAY-LE-MONIAL COMMUNAL CEMETERY

His service record is attached.  (I do not know how we will ever understand how he was interred here).

Someone suggested that he was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, but this must be another Thomas Gooderson.  Could anyone confirm?

Per his records, it looks like his last posting was HMS M18 (to 4-Oct-18).  I would like very much to know what the Explorer II and M18 were doing during their operations in the Aegean Sea. 

I am also looking for his brothers:

John dob 20-12-1888 Downham, Norfolk

William dob 01-Oct-1881 Sunderland, Norfolk

Robert dob 10-Jan-1892 Downham, Norfolk - I have found Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Thanks all.

 

 

[horatio2]

Your GU had continuous RN service from 1911 so disregard any army service rumours.

It looks as though he was a pretty useless steward as his Ability only rose to "Satisfactory" in 1916 and previously he was assessed as "Moderate" or "Inferior".

He also had a blemished conduct record. For calendar year 1915, probably for an offence(s) while serving ashore in PEMBROKE, his Character assessment was reduced from "VG" to "Fair" - serious reduction below "Good". The offence(s) are not recorded.

His WW1 embarked service was in:

the destroyer depot ship HMS TYNE - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tyne_(1878)

 

the cruiser HMS GRAFTON - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Grafton_(1892).

 

the cruiser HMS EUROPA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Europa_(1897)

 

the monitor HMS M.18 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_M18

 

He went out to join the Dardanelles campaign in GRAFTON in mid 1915 and remained in the Aegean serving initially in the flagship EUROPA at Mudros, followed by a draft to M.18. The naval forces in the Aegean were present to protect the UK garrisons in the Greek Aegean islands and to handle any break out of Turkish forces through the Dardanelles (such as happened in late January 1918 when the former SMS GOEBEN and BRESLAU (Turkish YAVUZ and MIDILLI) sortied and sank HMS RAGLAN and HMS M.25 in the Battle of Imbros.)

 

HMS GRAFTON's deck logs are here - http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-05-HMS_Grafton.htm

 

[Diane. Toronto]

Not sure if "useless" is a specific category in the military.  I was pretty "useless" myself  at  twenty-one.  Luckily I have lived long enough to mature.  RIP Thomas.

[Diane. Toronto]

By the way, Europa II " . . . was established at Stavros Bay, on the Greek mainland about 75 miles northwest of Mudros. It supported armed trawlers, motor launches and lighters [in 1915]" per a personal account from Jack Board:

Extracted 2018-08-10: https://cannfamilyhistory.wordpress.com/2015/07/14/10-jack-boards-royal-naval-reserve-records-part-2/