john w. Posted 27 May , 2003 Share Posted 27 May , 2003 I have just bought Shot at Dawn by Julians Putkowski and Sykes... The question raised in the book is was Herbert Morris white or black? With no photograph... any thoughts? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dave neale Posted 28 May , 2003 Share Posted 28 May , 2003 John, Herbert Morris volunteered to serve with the British West Indian regiment, B cny, 6th Btn. This was a regiment of black troops raised in the Caribbean. I think we can be pretty sure therefore that Herbert was also black. A couple of other points about this regiment were that no black soldier could hold a commission and they were not to be allowed to directly engage in combat. As Im sure you also know there are some doubts as to the age of Herbert on enlistment and there was no medical examination carried out even though his defence was he had, "trouble with my head and cannot stand the sound of the guns" Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 May , 2003 Share Posted 28 May , 2003 The book "Unquiet Graves" by Piet Chielens and Julian Putowski states (page 41) that "Morris was a black Jamaican private... " Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 28 May , 2003 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2003 I have both books.. and yes you are right it does say that.. yet in the latest revised edition of Shot at Dawn page 195-6 it states that it wasnt known if he was black or white.. hence the question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dave neale Posted 28 May , 2003 Share Posted 28 May , 2003 John, I have a 1989 edition of "Shot at Dawn" and it reads exactly the same so it would appear no further revision has been made to this entry. The information I have is from an article by Julian Putkowski that I printed off the web sometime last year. I guess if you do a search you could find it. Try, British West Indies Regiment World War One. In this he mentions that Morris was one of 15,440 black soldiers who volunteered to serve with the battalions raised in the British Caribbean. This could be from further research that Julian has since carried out. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 28 May , 2003 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2003 Cheers Dave Have emailed Julian and await results.... feel the same as you, just came as a surprise that was all John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dave neale Posted 29 May , 2003 Share Posted 29 May , 2003 Hi John, Have to ask, what was it that surprised you? That Herbert was underage, was condemened without a proper medical examination or was a black soldier? I would be interested in hearing Julians reply if he is able to confirm Herbert as a black soldier. all the best Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 29 May , 2003 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2003 Dave What surpised me was that having researched Herbert Morris for sometime I read in Unquiet Graves that he was black, then purchased Shot at Dawn and that said he might be white and it raised the question. The former was written in 2000 and the latter was a revised edition 2003, hence the confusion and my posting. I have had a reply from Julian this morning who confirms he was black. There endeth the quest! I have been to Herbert Morris' grave in Pop New Military Cemetery and also have his trial papers, along with a number of other under age soldiers. I think now with the arrival also today of Babingtons book I think I have the full house of available texts on executions.. I got a lot of reading to complete now.. What I am interested in doing once this is all done is to look at the way the war was perceived and has been for the last 80 years, as I am firmly of the belief that this is why and how we see executions and those who died at the hands of their comrades. Many of those who returned and still do today fail to talk openly about what they have seen.. Interview any soldier and you will still see the facial expression, they suffered and still suffer.. If you read George Coppard.. machine gun to cambrai... Arthur savage was another... they found it hard and bore no grudge to their fellow man.. yet we who weren't there seem to have developed this concept that they did something wrong... many were old 'lags' and had fought for a long time.. Harry Macdonald had been in the Boer war and was still shot for desertion. WW2 vets, Vietnam vets, Falkland Vets all have that look in their eye.. one that is hard to convey to us who were never there.... I have no surprise Dave, just want to see justice for those who fought for their country like anyone else... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dave neale Posted 30 May , 2003 Share Posted 30 May , 2003 Hi John, I can see where your comming from now. Glad to hear that Julian was able to confirm that Herbert Morris was indeed a black soldier. It can be quite easy when reading so many court summarys to miss what the colour or creed of each individual may have been. It certainly sounds like you have some further reading to do. I have been there myself. I dont think the perception of shooting fellow soldiers may have changed much over the past 80+ years, It was abhorrent then and still is now. But there is a far greater awarness due to access to files locked away for many years and the growth of research material available to everyone to read. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 30 May , 2003 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2003 The executions I feel are immaterial in some respect... what is at issue here is why the politicians even now wont allow a pardon... the men who fought in any war find it hard to make others understand what they went through. The politicians send them there for whatever reason. It seems that the main fault lies with them, files locked away, refusal to answer questions during the war on executions, all seems too convenient I fear... to sweep it under the carpet. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 31 May , 2003 Share Posted 31 May , 2003 John - as I think you know I did my MA thesis on Black soldiers in WW1 (I thought I had sent you my extract for Morris?), and while doing this was able to show my WI sources that the address, and family backgroud of Morris showed clearly he was Black. I passed this on to Julian, which is probably why the two accounts differ. Very, very few white men served as ORs in the BWIR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 31 May , 2003 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2003 Paul I remember but it seems a long time ago now !! Perhaps you can see the confusion with the books... and Julian has told me that he was indeed black so all sorted... Pity there werent any pictures of him.... still got feelers out but dont hold out much hope.. As stated in my earlier posting I see this as being important now.. do you have any thoughts? What I am interested in doing once this is all done is to look at the way the war was perceived and has been for the last 80 years, as I am firmly of the belief that this is why and how we see executions and those who died at the hands of their comrades. Many of those who returned and still do today fail to talk openly about what they have seen.. Interview any soldier and you will still see the facial expression, they suffered and still suffer.. If you read George Coppard.. machine gun to cambrai... Arthur savage was another... they found it hard and bore no grudge to their fellow man.. yet we who weren't there seem to have developed this concept that they did something wrong... many were old 'lags' and had fought for a long time.. Harry Macdonald had been in the Boer war and was still shot for desertion. WW2 vets, Vietnam vets, Falkland Vets all have that look in their eye.. one that is hard to convey to us who were never there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 3 June , 2003 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2003 Watch this space... had an email today from Jamaica in response to a letter I emailed to the Jamaican Weekly Gleaner... the respondent thinks they can find more on Herbert... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 3 June , 2003 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2003 Just had another email.... Did Herbert have any brothers or sisters? Any names.. I kniow it is a longshot but it would be very helpful.... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now