drummer in ?Liverpool Regiment > ?Labour Corps

[searching_for_years]

48 minutes ago, daggers said:

In post #15 I think he is wearing boots and puttees 

Thank you!

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, searching_for_years said:

 

 

Here he is with his drum (and his KLR cap-badge, I think). In the other photos he's wearing puttees and boots but in this one he seems to have slightly-short trousers plus shoes.

Would be very grateful for any info anyone can extract from this photo.

 

He seems to be quite a small fellow, but without such baby faced features as some underage soldiers.  His uniform is typical, khaki-drab service dress with boots and puttees, the latter have been wound tight to give the tapered effect to his lower legs.  He carries a typical regimental side drum with the correct, 'emblazon' hand-painted on with coloured paints, which with the white 'carriage' (suspension straps) would have looked quite bright against his uniform.  He wears a typical waist belt for drummers from the buff leather, 'Slade Wallace' equipment that was usually whitened, but which could also be scrubbed back to its nubuck leather base.  The trailing cords have been plaited as was common, but they are actually for carrying the drum on the back when on the march, but without being beaten.

 

I don't know if you are aware, but quite a number of regimental photos like yours have been deposited in the collection at this link: http://www.ww1photos.org/regiment/kings-liverpool-regiment/

 

Edited 8 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, searching_for_years said:

 

Here he is without the drum, but I take it those cords across his chest are for attaching a drum? And is that a drummer's sleeve-badge he's got on his right arm? Any observations anyone can offer on this or the with-drum photo, greatly appreciated!

 

The badge on his arm is that of a drummer.  Traditionally there were two drummers in each infantry company.  When in barracks they practised together under the supervision of the 'Sergeant Drummer' (also known before WW1 and since the early 1920s as 'Drum Major', when the traditional title was resurrected).

The cords are bugle suspension cords, which were also plaited and festooned across the chest as the mark of a drummer sometime after the 2nd Boer War.  In a Royal regiment these cords were traditionally in red blue and yellow, and in non-Royal regiments they were a shade of green associated with light infantry.  Drummers were required to both beat drum and sound bugle.

 

He’s also wearing black ‘Rifle regiment pattern’ buttons that were a feature of some TF battalions that prior to 1881 had an independent existence as units of the Volunteer Rifle Corps that extended across the length and breadth of Britain.  The 5th and 6th Battalion King’s Liverpool Regiment were two of these units with elements of black insignia to commemorate their origins.

 

Edited 9 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[searching_for_years]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The badge on his arm is that of a drummer.  Traditionally there were two drummers in each infantry company.  When in barracks they practised together under the supervision of the 'Sergeant Drummer' (also known before WW1 and since the early 1920s as 'Drum Major', when the traditional title was resurrected).

The cords are bugle suspension cords, which were also plaited and festooned across the chest as the mark of a drummer sometime after the 2nd Boer War.  In a Royal regiment these cords were traditionally in red blue and yellow, and in non-Royal regiments they were a shade of green associated with light infantry.

Oh, thank you, Frogsmile, that's very interesting. Does that mean he will have played the bugle too? It wouldn't surprise me - before he joined the army he'd been head chorister at Liverpool Cathedral, and he was a very good self-taught pianist, of the 'you hum it, I'll play it' (with both hands) variety.

 

[searching_for_years]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The badge on his arm is that of a drummer.  Traditionally there were two drummers in each infantry company.  When in barracks they practised together under the supervision of the 'Sergeant Drummer' (also known before WW1 and since the early 1920s as 'Drum Major', when the traditional title was resurrected).

The cords are bugle suspension cords, which were also plaited and festooned across the chest as the mark of a drummer sometime after the 2nd Boer War.  In a Royal regiment these cords were traditionally in red blue and yellow, and in non-Royal regiments they were a shade of green associated with light infantry.

So ... sorry to display my ignorance here, but how big is/was an infantry company? How many companies to a batallion? (I told you all this was new to me!!) And do you mean just the two drummers and the drum sergeant would practice together, or the drummers/other musicians from other companies?

 

And when would they play, other than in barracks? I'm beginning to imagine a band at the front / in the middle / at the back as they marched, for example, between railway station and billets, or marching from one place to another ... though that does seem rather like drawing attention to themselves in a war zone. Still, I suppose they'd have been fairly conspicuous anyway and maybe it was seen as helping support morale. Excuse ignorance - my own background is in the NHS, so I know nothing about these things.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, searching_for_years said:

Oh, thank you, Frogsmile, that's very interesting. Does that mean he will have played the bugle too? It wouldn't surprise me - before he joined the army he'd been head chorister at Liverpool Cathedral, and he was a very good self-taught pianist, of the 'you hum it, I'll play it' (with both hands) variety.

 

 

Yes the two key instruments were drum and bugle, and some men also played the military flute traditionally referred to as a fife.  Both the drum and bugle had a series of sequences that were used to organise the soldier's day, from getting up in the morning (Reveille) to attending communal feeding (Dinner Call).  You can listen to the calls here:  http://www.farmersboys.com/MAIN/Bugles_Calls.htm

 

Edited 8 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[searching_for_years]

Gosh, this is all really interesting. I hope you don't mind me continuing to ask questions!

 

I've listened to those bugle calls now - I remember some of them, from when I was a child and we sometimes used to camp in the same field as the Boys Brigade who used ones like 'come to the cookhouse door' (well that was what my father called it anyway when he was explaining it to me!!) So would the same person who played the drum at other times play those too, or was there a drum accompaniment, or did the drummer do other calls? They must have been kept quite busy - up before everyone else to do the reveille, presumably last in to meals after calling everyone else, etc - what proportion of the drummer's time would be spent on drumming duties, do you think (I'm talking about when they were in the trenches) rather than doing what everyone else was doing, i.e. either fighting or digging/maintaining/improving trenches?

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, searching_for_years said:

So ... sorry to display my ignorance here, but how big is/was an infantry company? How many companies to a batallion? (I told you all this was new to me!!) And do you mean just the two drummers and the drum sergeant would practice together, or the drummers/other musicians from other companies?

 

And when would they play, other than in barracks? I'm beginning to imagine a band at the front / in the middle / at the back as they marched, for example, between railway station and billets, or marching from one place to another ... though that does seem rather like drawing attention to themselves in a war zone. Still, I suppose they'd have been fairly conspicuous anyway and maybe it was seen as helping support morale. Excuse ignorance - my own background is in the NHS, so I know nothing about these things.

 

Until just before WW1 each, regular army infantry battalion had eight companies, lettered A to F, and each company had 100 men when at full strength.  Together with a battalion HQ and quartermaster's department that gave an overall battalion strength of around 1,000.

 

By 1914 that had changed, except in the part-time Territorial Force (TF), to four, so-called double companies, A to D (created by simply merging companies in pairs).  In 1915 the TF were brought in line with the regulars.

 

In peacetime and when on the march from one point to another each battalion was traditionally led by its regimental band, who were musicians rather than soldiers, and in front of them, at the place of honour marched the small corps of drummers, or pipers (if Scots or Irish), who were each trained first and foremost as soldiers.  Each drummer was paid a penny extra per day and was recorded on the nominal roll as a Drummer rather than a Private.   Ergo a battalion consisted of Officers, Warrant Officers, NCOs, Drummers and Privates.  In Rifle regiments the band was preceded by buglers rather than drummers.

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, searching_for_years said:

Gosh, this is all really interesting. I hope you don't mind me continuing to ask questions!

 

I've listened to those bugle calls now - I remember some of them, from when I was a child and we sometimes used to camp in the same field as the Boys Brigade who used ones like 'come to the cookhouse door' (well that was what my father called it anyway when he was explaining it to me!!) So would the same person who played the drum at other times play those too, or was there a drum accompaniment, or did the drummer do other calls? They must have been kept quite busy - up before everyone else to do the reveille, presumably last in to meals after calling everyone else, etc - what proportion of the drummer's time would be spent on drumming duties, do you think (I'm talking about when they were in the trenches) rather than doing what everyone else was doing, i.e. either fighting or digging/maintaining/improving trenches?

 

By WW1 and the realities of trench warfare the drummers were only active with bugle calls when out of the line in rest areas or static training camp locations.  In the line the buglers joined their companies and performed as soldiers just like the others in their companies.

 

A drummer was required to be capable of sounding all the calls and out of the line each battalion had one or more 'duty buglers' to sound them as required.

 

Edited 8 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[searching_for_years]

39 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The badge on his arm is that of a drummer.  Traditionally there were two drummers in each infantry company.  When in barracks they practised together under the supervision of the 'Sergeant Drummer' (also known before WW1 and since the early 1920s as 'Drum Major', when the traditional title was resurrected).

The cords are bugle suspension cords, which were also plaited and festooned across the chest as the mark of a drummer sometime after the 2nd Boer War.  In a Royal regiment these cords were traditionally in red blue and yellow, and in non-Royal regiments they were a shade of green associated with light infantry.  Drummers were required to both beat drum and sound bugle.

 

 

So would King's Liverpool Regiment count as a Royal regiment?

 

Are there other differences between Royal regiments and the non-royal variety?

 

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, searching_for_years said:

 

So would King's Liverpool Regiment count as a Royal regiment?

 

Are there other differences between Royal regiments and the non-royal variety?

 

 

Yes, the King's (Liverpool) Regiment, previous to 1881 the 8th Regiment of line infantry in order of seniority (out of 109), was indeed a Royal regiment.

 

There was no difference in 'field dress' between Royal and non Royal infantry battalions, but in general at that time the former had dark blue facings (collar and cuffs) on its dress uniforms and the latter had white, green, or yellow depending upon Nationality.  I enclose photos of the specially laced tunics, worn only by line drummers, to illustrate this difference.  The lace was and still is known as 'crown and Inch'.  There were also so-called drummers wings, that you can see fitted on the shoulders of the Royal tunic, but by coincidence missing from the non Royal tunic.  Also, peaked forage caps had a scarlet band for Royal regiments, but were plain blue with just thin red piping for non Royal (with a few special exceptions).

 

Edited 9 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[searching_for_years]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, the King's (Liverpool) Regiment, previous to 1881 the 8th Regiment of line infantry in order of seniority (out of 109), was indeed a Royal regiment.

 

There was no difference in 'field dress' between Royal and non Royal infantry battalions, but in general at that time the former had dark blue facings (collar and cuffs) on its dress uniforms and the latter had white, green, or yellow depending upon Nationality.  I enclose photos of the specially laced tunics, worn only by line drummers, to illustrate this difference.  The lace was and still is known as 'crown and Inch'.  There were also so-called drummers wings, that you can see fitted on the Royal tunic, but by coincidence missing from the non Royal tunic.  Also, peaked forage caps had a scarlet band for Royal regiments, but were plain blue with just thin red piping for non Royal (with a few special exceptions).

 

 

[searching_for_years]

Frogsmile, I have just come back to this thread to check for updates and have found that you have kindly added lots more photos. Thank you so much, I am learning so much!

Edited 9 January , 2019 by searching_for_years

[Ken Lees]

I think is worth noting that, if I remember correctly, a wartime enlistment drummer would not have been issued with the uniform shown above. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Ken Lees said:

I think is worth noting that, if I remember correctly, a wartime enlistment drummer would not have been issued with the uniform shown above. 

 

That is quite correct Ken, I showed the uniform merely to illustrate the answer to the original poster’s (OP) question regarding the difference in uniform between a Royal and non Royal regimental dress uniform outside of the field.  I think that the OP understood that.

 

Footnote:  In general, and unlike the war-raised Service Battalions of Kitchener’s Armies, the TF battalions tried to retain their pre-war culture and traditions, which included properly emblazoned side drums, arm badges and drummers cords, but rarely stretched to full dress tunics apart from perhaps the 3rd line battalions retained in Britain.

Edited 9 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[searching_for_years]

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

That is quite correct Ken, I showed the uniform merely to illustrate the answer to the original poster’s (OP) question regarding the difference in uniform between a Royal and non Royal regimental dress uniform outside of the field.  I think that the OP understood that.

 

Footnote:  In general, and unlike the war-raised Service Battalions of Kitchener’s Armies, the TF battalions tried to retain their pre-war culture and traditions, which included properly emblazoned side drums, arm badges and drummers cords, but rarely stretched to full dress tunics apart from perhaps the 3rd line battalions retained in Britain.

 

Yes I did understand that, but thank you both for clarifying anyway. I have learned such a lot from all the replies to this question - things I thought I had no hope of ever discovering! Thank you all so much. I have another question but as it's (sort of) on a different theme I'll start a new thread, however when I've done so I'll come back here and post a link in case any of you kind people who've already told me so much about my grandfather's time in the army feel like contributing to that too!

 

Edit: Here's the link:

 

Edited 10 January , 2019 by searching_for_years

[Nigel A]

Thanks for a very interesting debate. I reenact Seaforth Highlander and presume that a sergeant drummer, when in khaki, wore the three stripes with the brass drummer's badge mounted above: would that be correct please?

[FROGSMILE]

On 25/06/2019 at 21:41, Nigel A said:

Thanks for a very interesting debate. I reenact Seaforth Highlander and presume that a sergeant drummer, when in khaki, wore the three stripes with the brass drummer's badge mounted above: would that be correct please?

Yes that’s correct on drab service dress, although occasionally (as ever) a cloth badge might be seen.

Edited 26 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE