Royal Field Artillery SD jacket

[Paul61]

Could you review this Royal Field Artillery SD jacket please guys, any opinions and comments welcome, many thanks,

 

Paul

[wmfinch]

What a wonderful item.

 

Easily identified items are Military Medal ribbon, wound stripe (left arm), three years overseas service strips ( right arm), general service buttons.

 

I'm sure others will add more info.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

 

 

[charlie962]

Did the RA use the GS button or the 'gun' button in WW1 ?

 

 

[charlie962]

Medal ribbons- MM, 14 or 14/15 Star, Croix de Guerre.

 

Overseas Service Chevrons, Red indicates overseas before 31/12/14, extra blue ones for start of each extra year oseas. So as I read it he had between 2-3 years overseas service.

 

Charlie

[Dragoon]

24 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Did the RA use the GS button or the 'gun' button in WW1 ?

 

 

GS buttons.

I thought the red overseas Chevron went on top, and I think the cloth Sergeant gun badge didn't come out til the 1930's?? I'll stand corrected on that if I'm not right.

Also, if this is a jacket worn by a soldier post WW1, surely he would have had his War and Victory medals up as well.

Don't know, seems like there has been a few add ons to this jacket, just my thoughts.

 

Chris

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, wmfinch said:

...Easily identified items are Military Medal ribbon, wound stripe (left arm), three years overseas service strips ( right arm)...

 

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Overseas Service Chevrons, Red indicates overseas before 31/12/14, extra blue ones for start of each extra year oseas. So as I read it he had between 2-3 years overseas service.

 

As Charlie says, 3 stripes effectively indicates more than two and less than three years overseas service.

 

2 hours ago, Dragoon said:

I thought the red overseas Chevron went on top, and I think the cloth Sergeant gun badge didn't come out til the 1930's?? I'll stand corrected on that if I'm not right.

Also, if this is a jacket worn by a soldier post WW1, surely he would have had his War and Victory medals up as well.

Don't know, seems like there has been a few add ons to this jacket, just my thoughts.

 

Red stripe below blue stripes is perfectly correct, see attached images. Embroidered gun badges perfectly correct for WW1 as well. BWM and VM ribbons only authorized in mid and late 1919 respectively, with the use of the 1914 Star/1914-15 Star ribbon effectively from early 1918 and early 1919 respectively, so if this was an early/mid 1919 demob jacket that combination alone would be perfectly correct. To my mind it appears a beautiful and untouched example of its type, and one I would be proud to have in my own collection.

 

 

[Andrew Upton]

And:

 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Paul61

Well done to have acquired a nice piece of RA history!

Perhaps the buttons should be Crown-uppermost. Personally, I would have been more comfortable with faded sewn-on ribbons of the MM, 14 Star, CdG - rather than a newish-looking ribbon bar - but the 1917 maker's tag speaks volumes...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Dragoon]

6 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

And:

 

 

I stand corrected on all accounts, thank you Andrew.

Every day is a school day!

 

Best wishes

 

Chris

[wmfinch]

Thank you Andrew,

 

I believe you have just educated me about this photo of my Grandparents.  No. 199319 Bombardier M.M. was formally called up in Jan 1917, and went with the Army of Occupation to Cologne, being de-mobbed circa Nov 1919.  He has three cevrons on his arm.  Can I now say this is a De-mob photo?  For the record, I had two photos of my Grandparents professionally stitched together, and the original photos of my Grandfather leaning on the seat and my Grandmother sitting on it are proudly in my possession.  Just in case anyone spots the missing seat leg!

 

V/R

 

Wayne

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, wmfinch said:

called up in Jan 1917, and went with the Army of Occupation to Cologne, being de-mobbed circa Nov 1919

So first o'seas chevron when he went abroad before Nov 1917, second chevron a year later still o'seas before Nov 1918 and third chevron a year later  still abroad before Nov 1919.

 

what is the badge above his right arm stripe ?

[charlie962]

Interesting to see the gun badge above the sergeant's stripes cut out around the ramrod.

[Paul61]

Guys, thanks for all the comments, Andrew, when you say early, mid 1919 de mob jacket do you mean manufactured then or a 1917 jacket that was issued in 1919? The reason I as is that the lining of this jacket is isn't actually white, its more an off white/greenish tinge, is that correct for a WW1 issue jacket? Another small concern is the label, I ran a UV light around the stitching of the tunic, badges, etc, and it was all fine but the edges of the label and the front where it had been touched lit up like a Christmas tree (see pic) is that a normal thing to see on an original jacket? Could be I'm being over cautious but I'm a little paranoid about faking and these things are quite an investment, once again any comments would be appreciated, cheers 

 

Paul

[mark holden]

Its certainly not a fake. I would not overly worry about the UV light on the label. The jacket was made in 1917 and worn by the owner until just post hostilities.All the insignia says a mid to late 1918 jacket converted for home coming/demob. I saw this on the dealer's site and thought it looked to be a good piece. I actually like the ribbon bar and leather boot lace attachment.    

 

Here is a demob set to Gunner Harry Airey MM

 

 

Mark

Edited 4 August , 2018 by mark holden

[wainfleet]

I also saw this jacket for sale and thought it was perfectly correct, like much of the other stock on that site.

[Andrew Upton]

14 hours ago, wmfinch said:

I believe you have just educated me about this photo of my Grandparents.  No. 199319 Bombardier M.M. was formally called up in Jan 1917, and went with the Army of Occupation to Cologne, being de-mobbed circa Nov 1919.  He has three cevrons on his arm.  Can I now say this is a De-mob photo?  

 

 

You can also see he has medal ribbons up, including what looks like the BWM ribbon, so that and the stripes tie in with an early post-war date.

 

10 hours ago, Paul61 said:

Andrew, when you say early, mid 1919 de mob jacket do you mean manufactured then or a 1917 jacket that was issued in 1919? The reason I as is that the lining of this jacket is isn't actually white, its more an off white/greenish tinge, is that correct for a WW1 issue jacket? Another small concern is the label, I ran a UV light around the stitching of the tunic, badges, etc, and it was all fine but the edges of the label and the front where it had been touched lit up like a Christmas tree (see pic) is that a normal thing to see on an original jacket? Could be I'm being over cautious but I'm a little paranoid about faking and these things are quite an investment, once again any comments would be appreciated, cheers 

 

I would read it as a 1917 made jacket that was issued fresh from stores in 1919 or thereabouts, blinged up for the return home, then safely put away and near perfectly stored for almost a century. I wouldn't worry about the label lighting up, lots of biological material will do so, and remember it was probably attached using animal glue! 

[wmfinch]

Quick reply to Charlie162 about my Grandfather's photo.  He was a Gun Layer and it's a trade badge.  It's a bit clearer in this 1918 photo, when had also had two chevrons on his arm.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

[GWF1967]

11 minutes ago, wmfinch said:

Quick reply to Charlie162 about my Grandfather's photo.  He was a Gun Layer and it's a trade badge.  It's a bit clearer in this 1918 photo, when had also had two chevrons on his arm.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

A cracking photograph Wayne. 

[Paul61]

Thank you everyone for the comments and opinions on this piece I really appreciate it, 

 

Paul

[munce]

4 hours ago, wmfinch said:

Quick reply to Charlie162 about my Grandfather's photo.  He was a Gun Layer and it's a trade badge.  It's a bit clearer in this 1918 photo, when had also had two chevrons on his arm.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

I think I recall reading on this forum that the trade badge placed above rank badge on the right arm indicated an instructor in said trade - the simple trade qualification badges were worn on the left lower sleeve. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 03/08/2018 at 22:23, charlie962 said:

Did the RA use the GS button or the 'gun' button in WW1 ?

 

On 03/08/2018 at 22:53, Dragoon said:

GS buttons.

 

I didn't know that.

When did the RA use the Gun Buttons?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, munce said:

I think I recall reading on this forum that the trade badge placed above rank badge on the right arm indicated an instructor in said trade - the simple trade qualification badges were worn on the left lower sleeve. 

 

That’s true for skill at arms badges, such as crossed rifles, swords and flags, but not for badges of appointment and trade.

[munce]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

That’s true for skill at arms badges, such as crossed rifles, swords and flags, but not for badges of appointment and trade.

Good to know, thanks Frogsmile.

[wainfleet]

On 03/08/2018 at 22:23, charlie962 said:

Did the RA use the GS button or the 'gun' button in WW1 ?

 

 

 

Either. Jackets would have been issued with GS buttons and it was up to the individual, or perhaps a unit decision, whether to replace them with RA buttons. Other ranks' RFA and RGA jackets turn up with either type on about a 50/50 basis.

[Paul61]

Andrew, looking at the posts again a thought occurred (I do sometimes have them), If the owner of this jacket returned home in 1919 would he not have had two more overseas chevrons on his sleeve? I thought maybe he might have been wounded around 1916 and continued his war service in the UK, could that be a possible scenario?

 

Paul