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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

The Second Battle of Cambrai


Retired Dave

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Hello All,

 

I am involved in the commemoration event in October for the men buried in Forenville Military Cemetery - the details can be seen in the Centenary Section under

Forenville Military Cemetery -  Centenary Commemoration – 6th and 7th October 2018

 

The men who fell in the battle for the villages of Forenville, Seranvillers and La Targette are buried here. They were mainly killed in action on the 8th October 1918. There are members of more than 10 regiments, including two New Zealanders, plus three unknowns.

 

Obviously the New Zealanders were close by and 5 kilometers to the north in Cambrai the fighting involved Canadian regiments. My question to you experts is, on the push of the 8th October 1918 what other nations forces were close by to north and south of the village of Seranvillers??

Any information very gratefully received.

 

The Best of Wishes as always

 

Dave

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It's not possible to screenshot from the Naval & Military Press disk and the OH for this period is not yet online. The best I can do is to attach a couple of dodgy photos. They should help identify some units. Looks fairly complex.

 

The time/date is wrong on my camera :D

 

Mike

temp OH Forum 001.JPG

temp OH Forum 002.JPG

temp OH Forum 003.JPG

Edited by Skipman
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  • 2 weeks later...

Skipman,

 

Please forgive me for the delay in replying, but I am out of the country and only occasionally online.

 

Thank you very much for the info. As you say it looks complex. When I am back home at the end of the month I will do some more research based on this mapping.

 

Thank you once again - much appreciated. 

 

Dave

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As per Mike's photos from theOH, working north to south: 63rd Div, 2nd Div, 3rd Div, NZ Div.

 

1/KRRC were in action to the N of SERANVILLERS attacking in an ENE direction towards FORENVILLE, but were delayed by enemies on their left (north/63rd Div) flank and FORENVILLE was eventually taken by 17/RF (6 Bde) at c.18:00hrs.

 

Map of the attack start positions and allocated divisional sectors ...

163000462_1918-10-082ndDivpositions-Copy.jpg.17322b1be872294cd477c0cd4246c13a.jpg

1114593785_1918-10-082ndDivpositions.jpg.e305af2ea7fe1c7e584e704608d6f833.jpg

 

There are timed disposition maps in the 2nd Div HQ GS war diary that suggest the Allies (presumably 3rd Div and the Kiwis) were through SERANVILLERS by 10:50hrs and holding the Green Objective Line despite the slower progress in the 2nd Div sector to the N.  I recommend taking a look.

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway
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Trench map refs for HQ locations of various units in 3rd Div sector including immediate neighbour units in 2nd and NZ Divs.  Should be useful for you ...

 

[Refs are for Sheet 52B NW]

1159311411_1918-10-08UnitHQlocations.jpg.eed7c6331f84793481a56fdfaa53649c.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by MBrockway
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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello Mark,

 

I have to apologise for the long delay in replying to your message. I am still in the USA for a few more days with flaky access to the internet.

 

Thank you very much for the info that adds on to that posted by "working mike". I have a copy of the trench map which only has the black dotted line which is overlayed red on your posted version above. The only other line is a red one at the position marked blue (third objective) on your map.

 

Your version is very helpful to my understanding of the days events. Sadly my grandfather was KIA before the line was through Seranviller. He was 13th bn King's Liverpool and I believe they were 3rd Div,  9th brigade.

I have the 13th Kings war diary for the day, but can you tell me where I will find the HQ GS diary you mention. Please can you tell the meaning of the GS in this context and where i can access the other details and the map. I do have an Ancestry account.

What is meant by the OH.

 

Thank you very much to you and Mike for your help. It is greatly appreciated. 

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

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Forgive the inconsiderate use of acronyms!

 

OH = 'Official History', more properly known as the 'History of  the Great War Based on Official Documents,' which is the source for Mike's maps.  The specific volume in this case is Military Operations: France and Belgium, 1918, Volume V: 26 September-11 November: The Advance to Victory, by Brigadier-General Sir James E. Edmonds and Lieutenant-Colonel R. Maxwell-Hyslop, and published in 1947.  As Mike laments, this is not yet available on-line anywhere.

 

HQ GS = Divisional Headquarters General Staff.  My map is from the 2nd Div HQ GS war diary.  There are detailed timings in the 3rd Div HQ GS war diary.  Both are available on Ancestry.

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Thanks Mark, that’s very useful.

 

I will have a good look when I get home - we fly later today and will be home Thursday. I find life much easier on my desktop than a tablet. I should have realised that more would be available at divisional level. I can't wait to get home to have a detailed view.

 

 I am looking forward to the Commemoration next month

 

Thanks for your help, it is much appreciated.

 

Dave Richardson

 

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Map from Narrative of 3rd Army Ops 1/10/18 to 11/11/18

 

Andy

Screen Shot 2018-09-05 at 10.01.04.png

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  • 2 weeks later...

Andy,

 

Once again I need forgiveness for being tardy with a reply.  The trouble with being retired is that you don't get any days off!!

 

Thank you very much for all that - really ties it all together.

 

The only question I am left with is - who was to the south of The New Zealand Division for a few miles??

 

I believe that the men in The Forenville Cemetery were mostly 2nd and 3rd divison but some 63rd and three New Zealanders (one in an unknown grave) but for completeness it would be nice to know who was in the line to the south.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

 

Dave

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Hi Dave,

South of the NZ's were in a different Corps (IV) being 37th Div next to the NZ's then 21st.

 

Andy

Screen Shot 2018-09-13 at 19.35.26.png

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On 13/09/2018 at 18:41, Retired Dave said:

The only question I am left with is - who was to the south of The New Zealand Division for a few miles??

 

I believe that the men in The Forenville Cemetery were mostly 2nd and 3rd divison but some 63rd and three New Zealanders (one in an unknown grave) but for completeness it would be nice to know who was in the line to the south.

 

Dave

 

Surely the map from Mike higher up answers this?

 

The starting divisions working N to S ...

57th

2nd

3rd

New Zealand

37th

21st

(with Guards, 17th and 33rd divisions coming into the line later)

 

At the southern edge of Mike's map, 113 and 114 Inf Bdes are from 38th (Welsh) Division, whose label is just cropped off Mike's shot.

 

1505111867_tempOHForum002.thumb.JPG.50ba

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway
38th div detail added
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Of course it does Mark - sorry to you, and Mike. I can only plead advancing years. That fills my knowledge gap completely I think - confirming that apart from the Kiwis, this part of the line was manned by British Divs.

 

Andy

Thanks for the new map, clearly for the day in question.

 

Para 50. of the document you attached above clearly highlights the point at which the 3rd Div made a temporary retreat - suggesting that the G.O.C had ordered that move. The 13th Bn King's Liverpool war diary suggest that the Senior Company Commander made the decision to retreat or be annihalated by MG fire. Their position being too extended to be tenable. The 13th started the day only 320 rifles strong. According to a soldier in my grandfather's trench ( reported through the Red Cross in 1919 ), and describing the point at which they withdrew, it was during that retreat that he was he was killed just a they got back to a trench.

 

At the event in October I mentioned in the OP I will be saying a few words (not yet written) at the cemetery, and so will the local Mayor. The event over the weekend 6th and 7th October 2018 at Seranvillers-Forenville will include a great deal of maps and photographs of the events of 100 years previous. I will be interested to see what more I can learn.

 

Thank you All for your help and patience.

 

Dave

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My grandfather's battalion - 16/KRRC, 100 Bde, 33rd Division - was at OSSUS on the 8th, about 7 miles to the south of Seranvillers, so my thoughts will be with you at the commemoration.

:poppy:

Mark

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