Flea Posted 30 July , 2018 Share Posted 30 July , 2018 Did Charles Skirving MASTERS make it to Chunuk Bair on 8 August 1915? Can you help me understand his service on Gallipoli? According to his official record, Charles was a member of the 1stWellington Infantry Battalion, serving on Gallipoli, Egypt and France with the Taranaki (11th) Company: http://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE19942174 He departed New Zealand with the 5thReinforcements on 13 June 1915 aboard HMNZT 24 Maunganui. “The Maunganuian” magazine published during his journey shows him as a member of the approximately 300 strong “B” Company under Major W H Fletcher: http://media.api.aucklandmuseum.com/id/media/p/065fe87f80080ee3d5a8fa6c18bfb2ace45f4cf8?rendering=original.pdf The Maunganui arrived in Suez on 24 July 1915: https://www.flotilla-australia.com/hmnzt.htm At this point, there is a gap in the trail as I cannot find any records for the transport ships from Egypt to Gallipoli. But according to his official record, Charles “joined battalion” in the “Dardanelles” on 11.8.1915: The war diary of the Wellington Battalion also notes on 11 August: “5th Reinforcements joined Battalion” http://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE36325894 However according to “The Wellington Regiment (NZEF) 1914 – 1919” the 5thReinforcements were actually fighting 3 days earlier on 8thAugust: “into thewelter of the 8th August, the 5th Reinforcements had been plunged. Not many of them survived. The Regiment was but a shattered remnant now as it bivouacked on the side of Cheshire Ridge. Including the additions from the 5th Reinforcements, West Coast Company numbered only 51 instead of its full strength of 227. Other companies were in similar plight.” http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH1-Well-t1-body-d9.html Fred Waite also notes the presence of the 5th Reinforcements on 8 August (though he doesn’t identify a particular battalion, so it isn’t clear if he is talking about Wellingtons): “If ever mortals were projected into a hell of torture and suffering it was the men of the 5th Reinforcements. Coming straight from the transports, they arrived at No.2 Post on August 8, and were summarily introduced to modern war. Hundreds of wounded had been carried down from the bloody slopes of Chunuk and were laid in rows in the neighbourhood of No.2 Post, in readiness to be carried along the Big Sap, and so to the piers as soon as it was dark. These men of the 5th Reinforcements had served little apprenticeship to active service; but they had heard of the casualties of the landing at Anzac and Helles, and some have written that at first they were of the impression that these rows of wounded men were an everyday occurrence! In a sort of nightmare, not knowing whither they were going, or even name of the dere they traversed, these men dived into the trenches on Chunuk Bair and found themselves among Wellington and Otago Infantry, Auckland and Wellington Mounteds—the heroic band of brothers clinging to Chunuk and prepared to die there. A great proportion did die there; but they held Chunuk! Into this company of heroes stumbled the men of the Fifths.” http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz//tm/scholarly/tei-WaiNewZ-c14-5.html A supplementary entry in the Wellington battalion diary about the battle of 8 August seems to clarify the discrepancy between the arrival on the 8th and 11th of August. It notes that he original members of the Wellington Battalion who remained alive on Chunuk Bair (2 officers and 47 men) withdrew to the Apex in the evening of 8 August, the 5thReinforcements of the Wellington Battalion arrived on Chunuk Bair soon after, but with the Otago Battalion: "The 5th Reinforcements for the Battalion who arrived at the peninsular on 8th were sent out to the OTAGO BATTALION at 2100 with picks and shovels. They were approximately 280 strong and were kept by the C/O of the OTAGO and placed in the firing line. They suffered severe casualties": As the diary notes - approximately 280 Wellingtons went out with the Otagos on 8 August. This looks like a similar number (approx. 300) listed with the B Company (a Wellington Company) travelling from NZ on the Maunganui. Is there a way of knowing whether Charles was one of these 280 reinforcements? Did he get to the trenches on Chunuk Bair on 8 August? As his record shows, Charles developed enteritis and was evacuated from Gallipoli on 8 September 1915 on the Maheno. He went to Egypt, then onto the Western Front. In 2017, I took his medals to where Charles is buried in the Karori Cemetery, Wellington (while serving in NZ during WW2): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woronora Posted 3 August , 2018 Share Posted 3 August , 2018 Hi I compared the list of names of the 5th Reinforcements, WIB, from the Auckland Museum Cenotaph site with the list of those killed KIA on 8 August at Chunuk Bair in Richard Stowers excellent book 'Bloody Gallipoli, pages 171-182. I only went to G in the alphabetical list and found 6 members of the WIB 5th Reinforcements who were killed at Chunuk Bair. These were 10/2060, 10/2065, 10/2084, 10/2098, 10/2124, and 10/2147. I am sure that if you went through the complete list of names for the 5th Reos, you would find many more who died on 8 August. With this in mind I am confident that the 5th Reos had joined the WIB for the assualt on Chunuk Bair. I hope this may help. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Posted 3 August , 2018 Author Share Posted 3 August , 2018 (edited) Thanks John for your tip. Using the service numbers has been really helpful. I've now searched the Chunuk Bair memorial list using the AM Cenotaph website. It shows a long list of WIB 5th Reinforcements who died on 8 August. See below. I can only imagine the list of wounded is even longer. I don't understand how men were organised in battle, but the grouping of service numbers below suggests that CS Masters (10/2234) would have served alongside these men on Chunuk Bair. I note in particular the death of HH Martin who carries the proximate service number of 10/2233. CLR Andresson 10/2060 WH Behrent 10/2069 JR Benson 10/2071 JJ Breen 10/2078 CT Brewer 10/2079 JP Brown 10/2084 FC Carter 10/2098 AJ Clark 10/2364 (13th August) RJE Daniel 10/2398 FA Davis 10/2112 JH Davidson 10/2417 CA Ellaby 10/2124 R Galloway 10/2147 W Goldstone 10/2159 GG Hay 10/2178 J Hunter 10/2436 WH Jessop 10/2193 WE Lewis 10/2208 W McCormick 10/2216 (10th August) HH Martin 10/2233 BW Oliver 10/2459 (15th August) F Ringrow 10/2295 R Robinson 10/2464 EB Ronaldson 10/2299 RJ Russell 10/2306 EJ Scrutton 10/2309 TW Smith 10/2315 EJ Spooner 10/2396 SH Stokes 10/2325 A Taylor 10/2331 HL Wake 10/2347 J Woodger 10/2364 Edited 3 August , 2018 by Flea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Posted 4 August , 2018 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2018 Discovered a few others: FR Hutton 10/1857 AJ Downing 10/2119 GR Taylor 10/2334 JT Gosling 10/2392 SP Chapman 10/2411 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woronora Posted 4 August , 2018 Share Posted 4 August , 2018 Hi With the large number 5th Reos KIA on 8 August, I think you can be confident that Charles was at Chunuk Bair. In addition, the 5th Roes would have formed a pool of fit men compared with those already at Anzac. My grandfather returned from Lemnos, where he was recuperating from enteritis, on 7 August , only to be killed at Chunuk Bair the following day. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Main Body Posted 22 August , 2018 Share Posted 22 August , 2018 On Saturday, August 04, 2018 at 15:02, Flea said: Discovered a few others: FR Hutton 10/1857 AJ Downing 10/2119 GR Taylor 10/2334 JT Gosling 10/2392 SP Chapman 10/2411 Noticed that Downing was on your list: Albert "Doolan" Downing was the first All Black to be killed in WW1. Stowers book states he was killed on either 8th or the 9th August. Seems to be some uncertainty about which day. I think the 5th reinforcements arrived either late afternoon or dusk on the 8th August, although most books are vague as to the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbgraham Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 (edited) I had the same sort of question. I have recently purchased the Death Plaque for 10/2216 William McCormick (mentioned in the list above). On his Archway file http://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE10909952 it states his date of death as the 11th August 1915 and I was interested to see if he had arrived on the peninsula in time to participate in the Battle of Chunuk Bair, only to be killed on the 11th Aug. Later in the file it states that he ‘joined his unit’ on the 11th Aug, the same as for CS Masters. That confuses me as I was sure that I had read somewhere else that the 5th Reinforcements arrived at Gallipoli on the 8th Aug. On further reading of the on the history of the Canterbury Infantry Battalion http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH1-Cant-t1-body-d4.html it states on page 67 thus: During the fighting the 5th Reinforcement arrived, and was used as a separate unit in reserve. A party of sixty-five of them was sent to carry supplies to the Wellington Battalion on Chunuk Bair, on the 8th; and of these only four returned. The rest of the Canterbury draft was employed behind the firing line for various purposes, and came on several occasions under heavy machine-gun and artillery fire. The result was that the great majority of the draft became casualties. A draft of two officers and thirty-eight other ranks of the same reinforcement arrived separately, and joined the battalion on August 11th. Perhaps some of the Wellington 5th Reinforcements were held back as well and only arrived on the 11th Aug. I would assume so if that’s what their records state. Edited 14 July , 2019 by nbgraham Added extra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbgraham Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 (edited) I just remembered that I brought a Gallipoli Plaque last year to 10/2282 Norman John Pugh so had a look at his record and unbelievably it's exactly the same which is very random! Says on his Archway file http://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE11393548 that he 'joined his unit on the 11th Aug. Edited 14 July , 2019 by nbgraham Added extra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Macpherson Posted 22 August , 2019 Share Posted 22 August , 2019 Read this book New Zealanders at Gallipoli I remember when I first came on here with questions about my great uncle the members said you will eventually have to read about the whole of the Great War, I thought they were taking the piss, but the were not lol and still I read, alot! Regards Wendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Posted 9 September , 2019 Author Share Posted 9 September , 2019 Thanks nbgraham for this additional information on these 2 soldiers. I think what may have happened is: the 5th Reinforcements of the Wellington Battalion arrived on the 8th; Approx 280 of them fought under the Commanding Officer of the Otagos (on Chunuk bair) so weren't formally under Wellington command yet; Then they formally "join" the Wellington Battalion on the 11th (in Overtons Gully). The Wellington Battalion dairies are the strongest evidence of this, including the page previously posted about the 8th: Read alongside this entry on the 11th (see the very bottom which reads "5th Reinforcements joined battalion"): The two soldiers you have identified (10/2216 McCormick) and (10/2282 Pugh) are both listed in the shipping list for the HMNZT 24 Maunganui which also includes 10/2234 Masters. So I think its fair to assume all 3 soldiers went through the same experience between the 8th and 11th. Key pages here (see "B Company"): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbgraham Posted 19 November , 2019 Share Posted 19 November , 2019 Thanks Flea, I had stumbled upon that shipping list from the HMNZT 24 Maunganui previously and noted my two blokes among the list. I had not seen the Wellington diary though so that was interesting to read. In Christopher Pugsley's Gallipoli he states thus on page 308-309: I came across the Wellington Battalion War Diary from Aug 1914 to Dec 1915 and it says this for the 5th Reinforcements: It is frustrating not knowing exactly what happened to the 5th Reinforcements. I'm sure somewhere there is a better record of their exact experiences but I'm yet to find it. Did McCormick and Pugh end up immersed in the battle of Chunuk Bair with the Otago's before joining up with the Wellington's in Overton's Gully? Or were they keep in reserve in a working party. And what actually happened to McCormick on the 11th to cause his death? Mysteries that may take some unravelling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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