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Speedy

Location of THE REDAN

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Speedy

Hi folks, 

I'm trying to locate the exact location for the 'REDAN' which I believe is a trench in either the Hamel or Thiepval Wood area of the Somme. The 9th RIR were billeted at Mailly-Maillet early 1916 until July, and spent time in this trench? system, other trenches named are  MOUNTJOY & TENDERLOIN. I have looked at some maps and am aware of REDAN RIDGE and MARY REDAN but not sure if this is what is being referred to by the use of term 'THE REDAN' in their diaries?
 
Hopefully some of you sages will be able to help!
 
Thanks in anticipation.

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EDWARD1

There is a Keats Redan  57D SE4 X13C 

Edited by EDWARD1

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Skipman

No doubt on Redan Ridge and possibly Redan Redoubt. McMaster lists  Click

 

Mike

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Skipman

Worth looking in the National Library of Scotland Trench Maps Click

 

Mike

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brianmorris547

Speedy

I had a look in the WDs of 107 Infantry Brigade and the HQ General Staff 36 Div. Plenty of mentions of The Redan in the Div WD for February and March in particular:

07/02 Ulster Div took over from River Ancre south of Hamel to the Serre Rd north of Auchonvillers with 107 Brigade in the north sector.

19/02 The WD puts The Redan in the centre subsector of the left 107 Brigade.

01/03 "Enemy exploded mine in the Redan 3 men of the TC being lost".  

18/03 "Enemy shelled left Brigade (107) esp The Redan and Auchonvillers" (The 107 IB WD for this date records, "At 2 am the Germans heavily bombarded Redan, Tenderloin, Roman Road, Sucrerie, Auchonvillers also outskirts of Mailly").

There are some daily intelligence summaries that record a MG emplacement was observed at Q 10 d 8 4 to command MARY REDAN and our patrols went out from WILLIAM REDAN.

The maps in the WD do not go far enough north to cover east of Auchonvillers and the maps on the NLS system for the area (dated April 1916) only show Redan Ridge.

There may be some further info in the 36 Div RE WDs I will have a look later. EDIT: The CRE 36 Div took over from the CRE 4 Div on 03/02/1916. The WD of the CRE 4 Div from 23/10/1915 explains what was going on at the Redan, without saying exactly where it was. 252 Tunnelling Co RE were employed there in November and December and fired camouflets on 30/10, 31/12/1915 and 16 and 17/01/1916.

Brian

Edited by brianmorris547

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Skipman

Not sure if this is of any use but interesting enough. This old thread mentions "The Redan" near Nieuport Click

 

Map

 

Mike

Edited by Skipman

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Speedy

Edward, Mike and Brian, can I say I'm extremely grateful to all for the interest and support offered here!

I'm of the mind given the billeting locations the area being referred to is somewhere N. of Hamel and W. of Mailley-Maillet i.e. Possibly Mary Redan or William Redan or somewhere else in this sector. I suppose I'd hoped that there may have been some definitive way of identifying it as I haven't been successful in locating a 'named' trench map for this sector as with some others, and may have just not been looking in the right places! 

Thanks for all the advice including the NLS (Mike) which just doesn't cover the area fully as Brian 547 has stated. Hopefully with the knowledge and understanding on here if no definitive answer is available that an educated guess may be offered? 

Thank you all once more for your time and knowledge.

 

Speedy

Edited by Speedy
Should read E. of Mailley-Maillet

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Skipman

My best bet is that it means "Redan Ridge Redoubt"  "The Redan" is mentioned on this page Click

 

Have attached a rough position of the Redoubt in a Kmz file.

 

Check this volume of the Official History for a map or a mention. Click

 

 

There is an OH Map that shows the Redoubt but I cannot copy it from the Naval & Military Press disc.

 

Mike

 

Kmz Redan Ridge Redoubt.kmz

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Speedy

Mike thanks again for your informative response. 

I'm inclined to agree with you that the REDAN referred to is the REDAN REDOUBT. 
Having read some further extracts from the 9th RIR diaries, they indicate sending 200 men as a working party to the REDAN, which I feel is a substantial work force for just a trench, also the 'OC REDAN', but probably more conclusive is they refer to activity (ferry lights) from the QUADRILATRAL, which was referred to the Germans as the 'Heidenkopf' (also mentioned in newspaper article link sent). This German redoubt I understand was situated on the NE corner of Serre Rd No. 2 cemetery and the trench lines are shown on NLS map 57D NE, just above your google earth map pin. So I think unless a conclusive map turns up this is probably the best informed answer available. Your time and effort are greatly appreciated!
Keep up the good work.
Speedy 
 
 

Edward, Mike and Brian, can I say I'm extremely grateful to all for the interest and support offered here!

I'm of the mind given the billeting locations the area being referred to is somewhere N. of Hamel and W. of Mailley-Maillet i.e. Possibly Mary Redan or William Redan or somewhere else in this sector. I suppose I'd hoped that there may have been some definitive way of identifying it as I haven't been successful in locating a 'named' trench map for this sector as with some others, and may have just not been looking in the right places! 

Thanks for all the advice including the NLS (Mike) which just doesn't cover the area fully as Brian 547 has stated. Hopefully with the knowledge and understanding on here if no definitive answer is available that an educated guess may be offered? 

Thank you all once more for your time and knowledge.

 

Speedy

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Howard

I think this shows “The Redan”. This is from an extraordinary map, it is hand drawn on linen by S Mildred, the CRE of 4 Division during the Battle of the Somme. It appears to be dated 8th October 1915. Full version here.

 

If you ever try it by tracing or other means, hand drawing maps with modern pens is difficult. If you then try it using old spring-bow pens and Indian ink, it is very much harder so hats off to this cartographer.

 

Howard

redan.jpg

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Fattyowls

That is really impressive Howard, absolutely superb as a historical document and also as a piece of cartography. Having made the odd map in my younger days I'll doff my cap metaphorically to Mr Mildred.

 

Pete.

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EDWARD1

That places it at Redan Ridge

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Speedy

Howard you have definitively resolved the location of 'THE REDAN' for me. The map is superb!!! It confirms also the other trenches mentioned in their dairy are MOUNTJOY and TENDERLOIN which are quiet clearly written on this map, so once again can I say a great big thank you to all the contributors here, who give of their time and knowledge to assist us the less well informed!

 

Thank you all.

 

Speedy

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Skipman

Great stuff. Hopefully that's not too far from google earth guess.

 

What an excellent map Howard. Where did you get it?

 

Mike

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EDWARD1

Do you not think that the person who copied the map left out the word Ridge as it appears in the margin of map 57DSE1 and on the map north 57DNE3&4 the word Ridge is in the map and the word Redan in the margin. In effect it is Redan Ridge.

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brianmorris547

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465251

This is the NLS map 57 D SE (April 1916). I am going to be referring to it later this morning. I was at Kew yesterday to look at some 1916 Tunnelling Cos RE WDs so I looked at 252 TC first. I used my new found skills to download it (WO 95/406/3) and e mail it to myself (with assistance from the staff) but when I got home and checked my inbox - nothing ! Good job I made some notes. As a starter the Company was formed on 21/10/1915 amd on 01/11/1915 the WD records, "REDAN position inspected and (policy ?) decided on". Next to this in a different ink  is written Map 1/20,000 B Series 57 D SE Q 14 b 9 9

More to follow when I've gone through my notes.

brian

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EDWARD1

Should read  Q4b9.9

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EDWARD1

From British Trench Map Atlas

Redan.jpg

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Howard
15 hours ago, Skipman said:

Where did you get it?

 

Mike

I spent 4 years scanning the IWM collection, part of that work is published on the WFA Mapping the Front DVD collection. This map is on the Somme discs.

 

It would be interesting to know why this bloke spent so long making the map, it must have taken many hours. Even the base map is hand drawn, at least the colouring is all hand done. Some maps have hand drawn detail over a printed base but these are always on linen backed paper or plain paper. At the time there were several problems with maps, one was the shocking state of the French maps to use as a start to produce up-to-date maps of various scales, the RE had to re-survey the front in a hurry. As this map is late 1915 it may be part of that re-survey by why hand drawn? Another problem was the delay between gaining intelligence of German works and getting that shown on British maps- that is what led to some British maps having hand drawn detail but this map is a puzzle. It is drawn on that curious shiny “sealed” linen, it is not the kind of stuff normally used in the contemporary lithographic processes and it has a distinctive look not found elsewhere. I have come across other hand drawn maps with their own look but those were usually produced post war, it is possible that this map was made post war but dated 1915 as part of a report. That may never be known as some time ago, some idiot in the IWM decided to split reports from their maps and store them separately, naturally a lot of context was lost.

 

Howard

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brianmorris547
6 hours ago, EDWARD1 said:

Should read  Q4b9.9

Yes, that is what I thought after my research this morning. I am unable to check because my downloaded WD of 252 TC has not hit my inbox (yet).

Anyway, Start with the WD of 12 Infantry Brigade (4 Div) August 1915. (WO 95/1501/6)

20/08 "Sound of German mining heard from our countermine in the Redan on right centre" On page 576/676 there is a hand drawn map which shows Redan as a salient between Beaumont Hamel and La Signy Farm. Tenderloin is marked behind the Redan

01/09 "Mines successfully exploded 3 50 am Germans retaliated and a crater formed within bombing distance of our papapet"

These mines were exploded at the Redan according to a sketch on p 598/676 and there is another map on page 614/676 which shows the Redan as the main salient feature on Redan Ridge (as post 10 shows)

WD 4 Div HQ General Staff (WO 95/1443/1)

Map on page 727/808 shows William Redan N E of Hamel and Mary Redan S of Y Ravine. Both are shown as salients. These were smaller separate Redans. 

WD 9 FC RE (WO 95/1469)

P 87/491 is a report from the OC 9 FC to the CRE that he received a visit from the Brigade Major 12 IB as to what to do with the crater (formed on 01/09). His sketch plan on p 90 shows the crater in front of Redan Trench. 

The WD of 252 TC RE is well worth reading from November 1915 to April 1916.

Brian

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Jez2528

Hi. I believe this to be a satellite photo of the Mary Redan Redoubt. It and a number of other trenches in the area are still visible from even low level after harvest in the disturbed chalk lines if this the Redan you are talking about. My great uncle was killed in the Mary Redan

IMG_1312.JPG

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EAST YORKSHIRE

Hello Jez, not sure if Mary Redan occupies the area just south East of the area you highlighted, (South east as you are looking at the map). I may be wrong but always thought is was nearer the fork in the road. And that William Redan was more over towards the Ancre Cemetery. Interesting area to walk though, back there in May (Brexit permitting!!)  Ian. 

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Don Regiano

I think you will find that Mary Redan is located at approximately 17. a. 6. 4 or a.5 .5 which puts it some distance north of the fork in the road, as per Jez's post, with, indeed, William Redan being in the vicinity of the Ancre Cemetery.

 

I've always taken the "Redan" to refer to the area of the Redan Ridge.  There is a 1:5,000 trench map headed "Redan" which refers to that area.

 

Reg

Edited by Don Regiano

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brianmorris547

Jez

I agree with Reg.

Please see post 20. There is a map showing the locations of William Redan and Mary Redan in the WD of 4 Div HQ General Staff - Piece 1443/1-4 - pp 727 and 728/808.

Brian

Edited by brianmorris547
additional info

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Howard
9 hours ago, Don Regiano said:

 There is a 1:5,000 trench map headed "Redan" which refers to that area. 

 

Reg

Here are two versions of it

One with planned barrage

the other with what looks like the results of the barrage

but that may be a co-incidence as the maps were separated from the relevant reports.

It is easy to geo-reference them in Google Earth so you could then plot all the details

Howard

 

 

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