Gareth Davies Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Captain Robert Cecil Knott died on 14 Aug 1916 and is buried in Cabaret Rouge. I know (think?) that he was originally in the 9th Bn (as a CQMS) and then was commissioned into the 28th Bn or 20th Bn before being attached to the 19th Bn. He had been in the UK (appendicitis) until 11 Jul 16 so he missed out on the horror of 1 Jul 16 at La Boiselle. On 6 Jul 16 his Bde (102nd Tyneside Scottish) were moved to 37th Div where they stayed until after his death. My questions are: a. When did he arrive in France/Flanders and where was he when with 9th Bn? b. When did he leave for UK for officer training? c. When was he commissioned? Did he go back to F&F before he became ill? I am guessing not because I don't think there are enough days in the calendar to have enabled this. d. What were his Bn (20th) up to on 14 Aug 16 (or maybe a few days before) that caused him to die and be buried in Cabaret Rouge? I think they were involved in some raiding in the line north of Arras. I know that Stewart & Sheen's book would answer this but I can't get to a copy for a few days . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 c) Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 (edited) Quote I know (think?) that he was originally in the 9th Bn (as a CQMS) and then was commissioned into the 28th Bn or 20th Bn before being attached to the 19th Bn. The war gratuity would suggest he was no more than a Corporal as acting/substantive rank however I have noticed some inconsistencies where a man has been commissioned. If anyone can confirm his rank and whether it was acting/temp/substantive I'd be interested to know. There's no date of entry on the MIC or medal roll and no Star noted on the MIC so it looks like he arrived overseas after 31 Dec 15. Craig Edited 25 July , 2018 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Thanks Craig. The 9th Bn arrived in France in July 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Hi, Interestingly, there are some papers for this chap... Image source: Findmypast - WW1 British Army Service Records Image source: Findmypast - WW1 British Army Service Records Image source: Findmypast - WW1 British Army Service Records ...and the back of Captain Knott's MiC Image source: Ancestry.co.uk - WW1 British Army Medal Index Cards Hmm! So discharged (not likely to become an efficient soldier) on 22nd December 1914, but commissioned wef 3rd January 1915?? Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Thanks Chris. How did he go from Pte to Sjt immediately (or am I misreading) and then to LSjt by 27 Nov 14 in under 3 months to then get discharged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 25 July , 2018 Admin Share Posted 25 July , 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, clk said: Hmm! So discharged (not likely to become an efficient soldier) on 22nd December 1914, but commissioned wef 3rd January 1915?? But then he had risen very rapidly from Private to Lance Sergeant (do I see him a full sergeant and reduced?) Strange discharge code though.... could being an officer render him unfit to be an efficient soldier? (sarcasm) Gareth beat me to it Edited 25 July , 2018 by DavidOwen typing too slow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Here's what that para in KRs means: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 According to the Universities at War site he is on the University of Durham’s Roll of Service, http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=11413 , and they also say in his biography he attended the OTC for military training at Armstrong College, which was split part in Durham part in Newcastle (refer to Wiki). Probably not relevant, but information all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 (edited) That discharge would explain why the war gratuity is funny. Unusual to see a commissioned man with a service record that's been left in the normal run of records 43 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said: Thanks Chris. How did he go from Pte to Sjt immediately (or am I misreading) and then to LSjt by 27 Nov 14 in under 3 months to then get discharged? He was appointed Company QM Sgt straight after enlistment and then dropped to unpaid (later paid) Lance Serjeant. I wonder if 'needs must' took over initially on formation of the new battalion and then he was dropped when a better candidate became available. He is listed as an 'undergraduate'. Craig Edited 25 July , 2018 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDWARD1 Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Gareth re question D "34th Div Diary 14th August 1916...relief took place during night of 14/15th in accordance with o/o No48 . On completion of relief units of the 103rd Bgde comes under command of GOC 103rd Bgde. Casualties.....20NF CAPT KNOTT Killed. The meeting point for the Guides was X23a 5.1 (36B) Relieved by 11th Royal Scots (Fusiliers) Eddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Thanks Eddie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDWARD1 Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 (edited) The map ref is on Caberet Road Trench at the crossroads known as Point G Edited 25 July , 2018 by EDWARD1 changed rouge to road Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Thanks. I don't have the British trenches on the map I am looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDWARD1 Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 This is 1st Sept 1916 Map from British Trench Map Atlas (which does name the trench as Caberet Rouge as originally posted) No it doesnt . its the earlier April Map. Sorry for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 (edited) Hi Knotty, 7 hours ago, Knotty said: ...he attended the OTC for military training at Armstrong College, which was split part in Durham part in Newcastle.... Probably not relevant, Au contraire. Of course I don't know for sure, but it had crossed my mind that his initial accelerated promotion might have been because of his OTC experience. Regards Chris Edited 25 July , 2018 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyacinth1326 Posted 28 July , 2018 Share Posted 28 July , 2018 (edited) I don't suppose he was related to Sir James Knott, North Shields shipping magnate and father of James and Basil of Reservoir Cemetery, Ypres fame ??? There is circumstantial evidence linking your man to a part of Newcastle (Benwell) closely associated with the Knott Trust. Nesham Street would have been very close to Armstrong College. Edited 28 July , 2018 by Hyacinth1326 more info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 28 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2018 I have no idea but it wouldn't surprise me if they were related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyacinth1326 Posted 28 July , 2018 Share Posted 28 July , 2018 (edited) A tantalising possibilty. Either way Sir James Knott (Prince Line) was a man of significant local and national influence. Edited 28 July , 2018 by Hyacinth1326 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 28 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2018 I will ask the family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 4 February , 2019 Share Posted 4 February , 2019 Just starting to look at the records of officers featured in a photo I bought a while back and came across this thread so thought I'd add his image: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 13 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2019 I missed this, sorry. Thank you for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 11 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2019 On 4 February 2019 at 09:43, mrfrank said: Just starting to look at the records of officers featured in a photo I bought a while back and came across this thread so thought I'd add his image: Where was this photo taken please? Was it Camberley or in France? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 12 May , 2019 Share Posted 12 May , 2019 It was taken at Camberley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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