Officers' Side-arms

[4thGordons]

I had the opportunity to examine a few Great War officer's side-arms - most are in 7.65mm (.32acp) and are mostly not the standard issue side-arms.

None were mint examples - several are very worn - but here are a few pictures

 

M1914 Mauser (German)

 

 

Savage Military Model 1907 (US Made supplied to France - example is missing lanyard ring) around 27,500 were supplied to France

 

"Ruby" pistol made by numerous Spanish manufacturers to fill French contracts - this one was produced by Zulaicia y Cia (AZ marked)

 

Dreyse (M1907) 7.65mm German taken in to German service in large numbers from 1917 on.

 

FN Browning M1910 7.65mm (Belgian early production but with no obvious military markings)

 

Spanish Made copy of a Colt New Army - made by Garate y Anitua and chambered for the 8mm French Ordnance round

 

 

[free1954]

nice. I like the Spanish copy of the colt revolver. thanks for posting.

[Ron Clifton]

The only official requirement regarding officers' side-arms was that they had to carry Government ammunition.

 

Ron

[4thGordons]

4 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

The only official requirement regarding officers' side-arms was that they had to carry Government ammunition.

 

Ron

I know this to be he case with British officers (although sometimes ignored) - I don't know if it also applied in other armies.

Chris

[casperdog]

What was the British Army standard issue revolver for Officers ?

Correction 

 

What was the British Army standard issue revolver for Officers in World War One ?

[Stoppage Drill]

Officers did not have a standard issue.

They bought their own. However, the "Sealed Pattern" was the cal .455 Webley MkV, at first, then the MkVI.

 

Due to insufficient supply, revolvers made by Colt and Smith and Wesson were also in widespread use.

 

RHA personnel and RFC/RAF used semi auto pistols chambering the Webley .455 Auto cartridge (not the same as the revolver cartridge) made by Webley or Colt. The Colt was the Model 1911 as carried by US forces in cal .45 Government, but slightly modified to use the British Webley Auto cartridge

 

 

[Shiny]

Hi All,

 

I'm researching a relative who's record says he was shot in the thigh by a German Officer's revolver.

 

Can I take from this post that there wasn't a standard issue German officer's revolver but it was likely to have been a 7.65mm caliber?

 

Thanks,

 

Michael

[James McNair]

4 minutes ago, Shiny said:

Hi All,

 

I'm researching a relative who's record says he was shot in the thigh by a German Officer's revolver.

 

Can I take from this post that there wasn't a standard issue German officer's revolver but it was likely to have been a 7.65mm caliber?

 

Thanks,

 

Michael

Hello Michael , it does rather depend upon if it was German made revolver or foreign.

 

Assuming it was a German made it was more than likely a M1883 Reichrevolver which although obsolete by the time of the Great War were used by units such as the Artillery and other rear echelon based units. The calibre was 10.6mm. But it might have been a captured gun .

[Shiny]

Thanks a lot James, he was wounded on the 26th of March 1918 near St Quentin, I'm not sure if that would make any difference. 

 

Michael 

[4thGordons]

I agree with James re the revolver type, if indeed it was German...or even a revolver!

 

One thing to note - whilst these days and in these circles we make big distinctions about "revolvers", "semi-automatics" etc, such distinctions were not always made (particularly by non specialists) previously. So if the record is a medical record indicating a wound in thigh (and the point is to record the wound/treatment) "revolver" may have been used in the way we might use "handgun"

Chris

[Shiny]

Thanks a lot Chris and an excellent point about terminology.

 

I'm using him as a case study for a talk and was hoping to be able to get a spent bullet to show what he was most likely shot with. It sounds like that just won't be something I can do.

 

Michael 

[4thGordons]

Perhaps you could get a couple to cover the bases and at the same time show the variation in calibre etc? 7.65mm (.32),  9mm parabellum, .455, and an earlier large revolver cartridge would show quite a bit of variation.

Best of luck!

Chris

[Shiny]

Good idea Chris, I'll see what I can get my hands on.

 

Thanks a lot, 

 

Michael 

[MikB]

On 22/07/2018 at 11:08, Ron Clifton said:

The only official requirement regarding officers' side-arms was that they had to carry Government ammunition.

 

Ron

Other calibres, especially 7,65mm/.32" ACP, .38" and .45" ACP and other revolver rounds were available through Army supplies. Not sure but maybe officers carrying a sidearm of another calibre were supposed to have some .455" ammunition with them as well. I think TonyE once posted a list of calibres and prices from contemporary documents.

[Shiny]

Thanks MikB, and presumably that applies to German officers as well as Allied?

 

Michael 

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Shiny said:

Thanks MikB, and presumably that applies to German officers as well as Allied?

 

Michael 

Sorry, don't know - but I'd imagine the arrangements in every army might differ widely. I wouldn't expect arrangements in the German Army to be anywhere near as loose as in the British. For a start, I think their pistols were issued rather than private purchases.

[Shiny]

Ok, thanks a lot. 

 

Michael 

[trajan]

4 hours ago, MikB said:

Sorry, don't know - but I'd imagine the arrangements in every army might differ widely. I wouldn't expect arrangements in the German Army to be anywhere near as loose as in the British. For a start, I think their pistols were issued rather than private purchases.

 

In the German army hand guns were officially issued to units, and so have unit marks on them, some with marks indicating they were 'staff' weapons. But likely some officers carried private-purchase ones and certainly did so in 1918-1920/21 as these had to be listed as part of the 'official' stock of weapons permitted to the Reichswehr according to the Treaty of Versailles.

 

Trajan

[Shiny]

Thanks Trajan, do you know what the official issue ones were?

Michael 

[trajan]

According to my unit-marking lists, Reichs Revolver M 1879 and 1883, plus parabellum 1904/06/08 and C.96, would seem to be official issues - but I have never really looked at hand-guns so I would not swear these were the only official issues! On the other hand I have no listing for a unit-marked Dreyse, or any of the other popular hand-guns.

[Shiny]

Thanks a lot 

[MikB]

On 14/10/2018 at 21:48, 4thGordons said:

I agree with James re the revolver type, if indeed it was German...or even a revolver!

 

One thing to note - whilst these days and in these circles we make big distinctions about "revolvers", "semi-automatics" etc, such distinctions were not always made (particularly by non specialists) previously. So if the record is a medical record indicating a wound in thigh (and the point is to record the wound/treatment) "revolver" may have been used in the way we might use "handgun"

Chris

 

Yep, I remember my dad even calling a highwayman's flintlock pistol a 'revolver'. I was about 8, and I thought it was odd even then!  

[MikeyH]

There was a documentary on BBC2 earlier this year, about the mystery surrounding a murder in the 1920's.  The deed was done with a Luger pistol.

The so called 'expert' presenting the evidence referred to the weapon as a revolver.

 

Mike.

 

I can also recall playing 'Monopoly'. back in the 1950's.  The game piece was in the shape of an automatic pistol, but was called a revolver.

Edited 16 October , 2018 by MikeyH

[MikB]

4 hours ago, MikeyH said:

There was a documentary on BBC2 earlier this year, about the mystery surrounding a murder in the 1920's.  The deed was done with a Luger pistol.

The so called 'expert' presenting the evidence referred to the weapon as a revolver.

 

Mike.

 

I can also recall playing 'Monopoly'. back in the 1950's.  The game piece was in the shape of an automatic pistol, but was called a revolver.

 

Think that was Cluedo. The 'revolver' was a miniature Dreyse 1907 auto, 4th down in the OP's excellent picture set. 

[MikeyH]

MikB,

 

You are of course correct, I still have the game somewhere!

 

Mike.