P.1903 Bayonet w/ Arabic Script

[Mattr82]

IIRC it was within the War Office records on the National Archives UK. It wasn’t listed in the site but had been recorded amongst the hordes of archived stuff. Saw it maybe 6 months ago when I was researching the Brits dropping off some weapons when the Pacific Fleet were at Sydney in 1945. 

[shippingsteel]

On 05/05/2024 at 21:10, navydoc16 said:

@shippingsteel new fresh from the fleabay

So am back from a short break now ready to look at this translation. Very simple now that the pattern has been established.

The longer "string code" format reads as follows ...

2nd Laywaa, 2nd Ghund, 3rd Kandak, 3rd Tolai, 1st Blook, number 21

Then on the opposite side tang we have the shorter "letter abbreviations" format starting with K (insert City/Province/District here) as a guesstimate we could use Kabul but in all honesty it could be anything starting with the letter K. So assuming it is Kabul it then reads as follows ...

Kabul Darstiz, 3rd Tolai, number 21

I will add these new examples into my tables on page 3 of this thread.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

Another one @shippingsteel

[shippingsteel]

On 02/07/2024 at 07:40, navydoc16 said:

Another one @shippingsteel

So this is another new example with a lovely set of extremely clear markings. This one sticks to the same format that we have already established. However a higher number seen in the Tolai column than before, with now up to 6 Companies possible in each Kandak, as shown in the possibly earlier Letter format.

I will now add these new markings to my tables found on page 3 of this thread.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteel so I found out something interesting today about the 49 marking, apparently used later as a “commercial” mark applied to Wilkinson bayonets- sort of like adding a NATO code to a product adds to the saleability. 
 

here are some photos of an commercially sold out of service and refurbished 88 piece, with new 49 markings on the grips, unsure who it was destined for, but the pommel marking is a rather distinctive

Kind regards

g

 

 

Edited 4 July by navydoc16

[shippingsteel]

Well I would like to know where you got that from, about the Crown 49/W inspection marking found on the timber grips. I was always of the opinion that it was a perfectly standard Inspection marking commonly found on Wilkinson made bayonets. I have several excellent condition early Wilkinson P1888's and they all have this mark clearly stamped on the grips, and these are standard War Department contract bayonets, marked as such with the early W^D stamp, so hardly "commercial" in any sense of the word.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

Nothing concrete, there’s a big Wilkinson sword collector near me who I was asking about these contract bayonets and it came up in passing 

understood it is WD, but according to him, these ones with the very crisp SOS markings were bought by Wilkinson post WW1 and refurbished for sale commercially to fulfil various military contracts especially with the disposal of the remainder of the early Lees from British service to across the empire.
 

He said that the 49 inspector appears to have been applied to many of these commercially sold and contract bayonets post WW1, however it’s only based observation so I’m not sure if it’s use on military pieces throughout the years. 
 

kind regards

g

[shippingsteel]

Yes it is a regular Wilkinson inspection marking that has been used on their production over the years and is very commonly seen, particularly on the grips but also appears on the ricasso at times. See photo below for example (courtesy of Dave66 from page 1 this thread)

The fact that it appears on some later Contract bayonets is probably just incidental.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteel ack, all good mate - much appreciated that you clarified because he was quite convincing, but all good. 
 

kind regards

g

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteel Newie

kind regards

g

Edited 1 August by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteel another just turned up

kind regards

g

[shippingsteel]

Both these new examples adhere to the same formats we have already established. I have added them to my lists found on page 3 of this thread.

The first bayonet reads as shown below ...

2.L  2.Gh. 3.K.  3.T.  3.B.  137.     then on the other tang. K. D. 6.T.  65

The second bayonet reads as shown below ...

2.L  1.Gh. 1.K.  3.T.  3.B.  124.     then on the other tang. Sh. K. 6.T.  31

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

I forgot to add the last set of marking photos but I can’t find the pictures- but all bayonets I have posted now have the same W49 marking

kind regards

g

[shippingsteel]

Yes they would all be from the same batch of Wilkinson production bayonets, with the same Inspection marking.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteel

another one showed up 

[shippingsteel]

Well that's different ... this one has a totally new set of leading letters in the abbreviated Letter Format, on the upper side tang.

Looks to read as M. H. 3rd Tolai, Number 24 which makes my head hurt, thinking about what these new letters could possibly stand for. 

Cheers,  SS 

[shippingsteel]

On 14/04/2024 at 19:17, shippingsteel said:

Looking back at these P1903 markings and there are currently 8 individual bayonets that fit the marking pattern that I have translated. I will try to list them in a table, as it helps to piece together the Army structure and relative composition. Keep in mind that the script reads Right to Left however for ease of transcription I will list them from Left to Right. Perhaps we can add to the list over time ...

Brig. Regt. Batt. Comp. Plat. Number.

  1.       1.       2.       3.       1.         24

  1.       1.       2.       5.       3.       116

  1.       2.       3.       1.       1          22

  2.       1.       1.       1.       1.         42

  2.       1.       1.       3.       3.       124

  2.       1.       1.       4.       3.       133

  2.       1.       2.       2.       1.         41

  2.       1.       3.       2.       2.         94

  2.       2.       1.       4.       2.         63

  2.       2.       3.       2.       3.       117

  2.       2.       3.       2.       1.         44

  2.       2.       3.       3.       1.         21

  2.       2.       3.       3.       3.       137

So from the above tabled information we can say that there was 2 separate Brigades, compromised of 2 individual Regiments each, made up of 3 Battalions (Kandaks) of up to 5 Companies each with at least 3 Platoons per Company.

Now this is just the current scenario using the information available to date. Further records may give reason to adjust this composition but as it currently stands you get a fair picture of the Afghan Army from that particular period.

I was able to draft this Structure together from just 8 bayonet examples marked in an unknown code based on a completely foreign language.! You can see why Intelligence authorities called for Regimental marking of bayonets to cease during the War. 

Cheers,  SS 

I have been updating the Tables with the markings from the new examples as they come to light. Brought forward here for future reference. (String Format table)

Cheers,  SS 

On 16/04/2024 at 06:53, shippingsteel said:

Moving on to the second set of these P1903 marking patterns, what I will call the Letter Format. I will now endeavour to list these in a table as well, with what info that I know, as it helps to draw out the similarities. These again all seem to end in the same Company number, Weapon number structure, which is reassuring. The leading letters are all abbreviations so no translation available until we work out what they stand for. Possibly Town/Region/District identifiers of independent Battalions or similar size units.

P1903.  Letters. Letters. Comp. Number.

  K.    A.    E.    D.    L.    H.    2.T.    22

                                M.   H.    3.T.    24

                                K.    D.    2.T.    44

                                K.    D.    3.T.    21

                                K.    D.    5.T.    81

                                K.    D.    6.T.    65

                               Sh.   D.    4.T.    63

                               Sh.   K.    1.T.    42

                               Sh.   K.    6.T.    31

                               Sh.   K.    6.T.    87

                                M.   K.    2.T.    41

                                K.    K.    5.T.    46

P1888.           J.    M.    D.    L.6     11

So we can see some patterns emerging in the table. The three letter K's immediately preceding the Company number no doubt stands for Kandak (Battalion). Then we have the three letter D's which must indicate another such unit type (unknown at this stage) UPDATE. Further research has provided Darstiz (Headquarters) as being a strong candidate here. Of course the letter T stands for Tolai (Company) which I take here as a given. This is a work in progress but any new information or examples can be added here in future.

Cheers,  SS 

I have been updating the Tables with the markings from the new examples as they come to light. Brought forward here for future reference. (Letter Format table)

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 3 September by shippingsteel

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteel

for your viewing pleasure

kind regards

g

 

Edited 29 September by navydoc16

[shippingsteel]

So this new example takes us full circle back to the OP, and @JMB1943 original bayonet that started this thread as it shares the same pattern of markings. This is a clearly marked item with extremely crisp inscriptions, which is always useful to have. This has helped clarify my initial thoughts on those letters.

From this new example we can see the first letter is now an Sh. Also a good look at that "shorthand word" below the rack number, which clearly reads as the n-m-b-r-a transcription. I have updated the tables and added in this new information.

Cheers,  SS 

[JMB1943]

@shippingsteel,

A very nice piece of work getting to grips with those Urdu abbreviations!

I like the tabulation, and hope that you will keep it updated as more examples come to light.

Regards,

JMB

 

[shippingsteel]

On 14/04/2024 at 19:17, shippingsteel said:

Looking back at these P1903 markings and there are currently 8 individual bayonets that fit the marking pattern that I have translated. I will try to list them in a table, as it helps to piece together the Army structure and relative composition. Keep in mind that the script reads Right to Left however for ease of transcription I will list them from Left to Right. Perhaps we can add to the list over time ...

Brig. Regt. Batt. Comp. Plat. Number.

  1.       1.       2.       3.       1.         24

  1.       1.       2.       5.       3.       116

  1.       2.       1.       4.       1.         47

  1.       2.       3.       1.       1          22

  2.       1.       1.       1.       1.         42

  2.       1.       1.       3.       3.       124

  2.       1.       1.       4.       3.       133

  2.       1.       2.       2.       1.         41

  2.       1.       3.       2.       2.         94

  2.       2.       1.       4.       2.         63

  2.       2.       3.       2.       3.       117

  2.       2.       3.       2.       1.         44

  2.       2.       3.       3.       1.         21

  2.       2.       3.       3.       3.       137

So from the above tabled information we can say that there was 2 separate Brigades, compromised of 2 individual Regiments each, made up of 3 Battalions (Kandaks) of up to 5 Companies each with at least 3 Platoons per Company.

Now this is just the current scenario using the information available to date. Further records may give reason to adjust this composition but as it currently stands you get a fair picture of the Afghan Army from that particular period.

I was able to draft this Structure together from just 8 bayonet examples marked in an unknown code based on a completely foreign language.! You can see why Intelligence authorities called for Regimental marking of bayonets to cease during the War. 

Cheers,  SS 

 

On 16/04/2024 at 06:53, shippingsteel said:

Moving on to the second set of these P1903 marking patterns, what I will call the Letter Format. I will now endeavour to list these in a table as well, with what info that I know, as it helps to draw out the similarities. These again all seem to end in the same Company number, Weapon number structure, which is reassuring. The leading letters are all abbreviations so no translation available until we work out what they stand for. Possibly Town/Region/District identifiers of independent Battalions or similar size units.

P1903.  Letters. Letters. Comp. Number.

 Sh.   A.    R.    D.    L.    H.    2.T.    22

 Sh.   A.    R.    D.    L.    H.    4.T.    47

                                M.   H.    3.T.    24

                                K.    D.    2.T.    44

                                K.    D.    3.T.    21

                                K.    D.    5.T.    81

                                K.    D.    6.T.    65

                               Sh.   D.    4.T.    63

                               Sh.   K.    1.T.    42

                               Sh.   K.    6.T.    31

                               Sh.   K.    6.T.    87

                                M.   K.    2.T.    41

                                K.    K.    5.T.    46

P1888.           J.    M.    D.    L.6     11

So we can see some patterns emerging in the table. The three letter K's immediately preceding the Company number no doubt stands for Kandak (Battalion). Then we have the three letter D's which must indicate another such unit type (unknown at this stage) UPDATE. Further research has provided Darstiz (Headquarters) as being a strong candidate here. Of course the letter T stands for Tolai (Company) which I take here as a given. This is a work in progress but any new information or examples can be added here in future.

Cheers,  SS 

JMB, yes it has certainly been a challenge. The underlying language appears to be mainly Pashto which does make sense given the Afghan origin. While the letters stamped are usually abbreviations this only adds to the level of difficulty.

The original tabulations which I am periodically updating are found on page 3 of this thread. I have brought them forward here again to show the most recent updates.

Cheers,  SS