Henry William Humphreys - killed in the Somme

[Neil]

HUMPHREYS
Private
1949
HENRY WILLIAM
Saturday, September 16, 1916
Age 21
THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Pier and Face 8 C 9 A and 16 A.
Royal Fusiliers
United Kingdom
 
1st Bn.
Royal Fusiliers
 
 

I am trying to find more information on my Great Uncle, killed on 16th September 1916 in the Somme, before I head out to visit the area in a couple of weeks. 

 

I have the battalion war diaries, but the battalion appear to be on rest days / training on the recorded date of his death (although they did see action in Carlton Trench near Flers the week before). 

 

Any help would be gratefully appreciated. 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

The soldiers' effects records confirm the date of death and state KiA. What was the battalion doing on 15 Sep ? (It's not uncommon to see men recorded as a day later than they actually died due to quirks in the recording process).

Craig

Edited 18 July , 2018 by ss002d6252

[Steven Broomfield]

15 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 What was the battalion doing on 15 Sep ?

Craig

 

1st RF were in 6th Division, so probably (given the date) something to do with the big push on that day.

[ss002d6252]

Just now, Steven Broomfield said:

 

1st RF were in 6th Division, so probably (given the date) something to do with the big push on that day.

Battles are not my area so something like that would escape me  - a quick google indicates Flers-Courcelette started 15 Sep so presumably part of that ?

 

Craig

[PRC]

Soldiers Died in the Great War has him down as Killed in Action on the 16th - but has his name as Henry William Humphries.

 

His Medal Index Card shows he first landed in France on the 31st May 1915 and so qualified for the 1915 Star as well as the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. But the card is in the name of Henry Humphries, although a note has been added in the notes section that the correct spelling is Humphreys - from the other notes its possible that his medals were originally returned and subsequently re-issued without being amended.

 

If you have access to a source like Ancestry or FindMyPast it might be worth rechecking to see if his service records have survived under that spelling.

 

1st Royal Fusiliers were part of 6th Division, although they were in 17th Brigade. The other two brigades that made up the Division were in action on the 15th both during the day and in a night action on the 15th/16th. The 15th September 1916 was a bit of a disaster for them as this was the first time tanks were used. Two out of the three allocated to the 6th division failed to reach the start time, meanwhile the artillery bombardment left a 200 yard wide channel so that the (non-appearing) tanks could advance over ground that was not churned up by shell-fire. Just to add to the misery, the one tank that did advance mistook the British trenches for the German ones and opened machine-gun fire on the massed ranks of men waiting there to advance. Sadly that was the 9th Norfolks which is why I have an interest in the events of the day.

 

The 17th Brigade were in reserve  but that doesn't necessarily mean they were miles behind the line. They would still have been expected to provide working parties and carrying parties, would have been well within the range of long range German artillery, (or a short from their own side), and would not have escaped air attack. Even a 'spent' bullet from the front line could prove fatal, although in those circumstances I'd expect a body to bury. In my experience "Killed in Action" has included a man training with hand grenades and someone in a tent when a mate started tampering with a war souvenir

 

If you have access to Ancestry you might want to track down the 17th Brigade War Diary & 6th Division for the period. As well as the war diaries for the infantry units they will hold logistical reports around working parties and a breakdown of casualties, (although seldom down to individual names). Alternatively you can download them from the National Archive.

 

Online there are free to view copies of "A Short History of the Sixth Division" and "Royal Fusiliers in the Great War" by H.C. O'Neill. The former makes no mention of the 17th Brigade being involved and the latter has nothing for the 1st Battalion so it wasn't something that the unit was involved in like a formal battle that caused his death.

 

Without a personal source such as his service records, quite often the next best source will be local newspapers.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Edit - Henry was one of three 1st Battalion men who, according to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database, died on the 16th September 1916.

 

Private L/15898 William Jones is buried at Abbeville Communal Cemetery. SDGW records that he Died of Wounds.

Private 4192 F W Robinson is buried at Corbie Communal Cemetery Extension.  SDGW records that "Eugene" William Robinson Died of Wounds.

Its likely that neither death will provide insight into the fate of the man you are interested in, but could be worth coming back if you exhaust all your other lines of enquiry. For completeness there were two deaths on the 15th and none on the 17th.

 

Edited 18 July , 2018 by PRC
Thought of something else

[Skipman]

 

Are we on the right man here. H Humphries was in the 8th Battalion? Click

 

Mike

 

[Neil]

Thanks for this... interesting stuff. 

 

If I have the correct war diary, they appear to be having quite a nice time in Bussus on the date of death... maybe the wrong diary, or he was wounded days before and actually died on the 16th?? 

 

His Service ID(?) is 1949. 

 

I will see what I can find from ancestry. 

 

Nothing much in the Chiswick local paper archives. 

 

Out of interest, where did you find his "Medal Index Card"? 

 

Thanks again. 

[Neil]

His name was definitely Henry William Humphreys as we have his "death penny" with the correct spelling of the name. 

Edited 19 July , 2018 by Neil
Typo

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

Thanks for this... interesting stuff. 

 

If I have the correct war diary, they appear to be having quite a nice time in Bussus on the date of death... maybe the wrong diary, or he was wounded days before and actually died on the 16th?? 

 

His Service ID(?) is 1949. 

 

I will see what I can find from ancestry. 

 

Nothing much in the Chiswick local paper archives. 

 

Out of interest, where did you find his "Medal Index Card"? 

 

Thanks again. 

The medal index cards are free to view on Ancestry (you may need to register a free account).

 

It is unlikely that he died of wounds from previous days as that should be noted as 'died of wounds' rather than 'killed in action'.

 

Craig

[PRC]

14 hours ago, Skipman said:

 

Are we on the right man here. H Humphries was in the 8th Battalion? Click

 

Mike

 

 

Mike, (et al)

 

I only have a free account so can't see the Medal Rolls, but looking at the MiC again I can see your point entirely - may be time for a visit to Specsavers. The MiC is for a G/1949 Henry Humphries who was Killled in Action 16th September 1916 and whose surname should have been spelt Humphreys - so far, so good. But in his unit details what I took as "(squiggle) 1 R Fus" is in fact more likely to be "8/R.Fus".

 

The MiC adds that he landed in France on the 31st May 1915. Long, Long Trail shows the 8th Battalion landing in France in May 1915.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/

 

I've attached the MiC to speed the thread along.

 

Now whether he was wounded and subsequently reposted to the 1st Battalion is another matter, but if thats the case then sounds like the Medal Roll was unaware of that.

 

I've done a very basic check using the National Archive catalogue.

 

For 1948 Royal Fusiliers there are four MiC matches - 2 with no prefix, G prefix and J prefix

For 1949 Royal Fusiliers there is only one MIC match - Henry.

For 1950 Royal Fusiliers there are three MIC matches - no prefix, G prefix and J prefix.

For 1951 Royal Fusiliers there are six MIC matches - 3 with no prefix, one G.E., one J and one SR

For 1952 Royal Fusiliers there are four MIC matches -  no prefix, G prefix, J prefix and SVR prefix.

 

It's a small sample, but doesn't look like the G prefix was in use multiple times.

 

I think it's the same man but would be good to nail down the unit,

 

regards,

Peter

[ss002d6252]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Mike, (et al)

 

I only have a free account so can't see the Medal Rolls, but looking at the MiC again I can see your point entirely - may be time for a visit to Specsavers. The MiC is for a G/1949 Henry Humphries who was Killled in Action 16th September 1916 and whose surname should have been spelt Humphreys - so far, so good. But in his unit details what I took as "(squiggle) 1 R Fus" is in fact more likely to be "8/R.Fus". 

 

The MiC adds that he landed in France on the 31st May 1915. Long, Long Trail shows the 8th Battalion landing in France in May 1915.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/

 

I've attached the MiC to speed the thread along.

 

Now whether he was wounded and subsequently reposted to the 1st Battalion is another matter, but if thats the case then sounds like the Medal Roll was unaware of that.

 

I've done a very basic check using the National Archive catalogue.

 

For 1948 Royal Fusiliers there are four MiC matches - 2 with no prefix, G prefix and J prefix

For 1949 Royal Fusiliers there is only one MIC match - Henry.

For 1950 Royal Fusiliers there are three MIC matches - no prefix, G prefix and J prefix.

For 1951 Royal Fusiliers there are six MIC matches - 3 with no prefix, one G.E., one J and one SR

For 1952 Royal Fusiliers there are four MIC matches -  no prefix, G prefix, J prefix and SVR prefix.

 

It's a small sample, but doesn't look like the G prefix was in use multiple times.

 

I think it's the same man but would be good to nail down the unit,

 

regards,

Peter

 

The Medal Roll is for 8th Bn but shows G/1949 H Humphries, KIA 16 Sep 16. Date of entry 31 May 1915.

I can't see it being a different man but....

 

The effects register shows 1st Bn. Monies paid to Mother, Louisa and Brother, Thomas.

 

Borth CWGC and the Effects show 1st Bn - unless there was a mistake on both sides then this points back to the unit entry being that which was shown when the forms noting the death were forwarded to the paymaster and records office from France.

 

Craig

Edited 19 July , 2018 by ss002d6252

[ss002d6252]

The CWGC shows " Son of Mrs. Humphreys, of 25, Thames Rd., Chiswick, London. "

 

25 Thames Road was the home of a Louisa Humphreys until at least 1935, this matches the person in the effects record so I think we can match the effects and CWGC.

 

Craig

[Neil]

I think I'll need to get the war diaries for the 8th Btn. I'll let you know if they sound more likely with regards the KiA on 16th September.

[Skipman]

 

It seems they were at Dainville on the 16th. Though, they did carry out nightly 'fatigue parties' it seems a bit far from the Somme?

 

 

Edited 19 July , 2018 by Skipman

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

58 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The effects register shows 1st Bn. Monies paid to Mother, Louisa and Brother, Thomas.

 

52 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Son of Mrs. Humphreys, of 25, Thames Rd., Chiswick, London.

 

52 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

25 Thames Road was the home of a Louisa Humphreys until at least 1935, this matches the person in the effects record so I think we can match the effects and CWGC.

Neil,

 

Do the above names and address found by Craig confirm that he is the right man?

Edited 19 July , 2018 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Neil]

Yes, that's him. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Curious that of the 18 recorded deaths that the RF sustained that day, there is no real concentration of the deaths in one particular battalion.

 

1st Bn -3 in different parts of France.

2nd -2

4th -2

5th -1

8th - 1

12th - 1

23rd - 2

26th - 2

32nd - 4

 

And of those commemorated at Thiepval, they come from

 

1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th & 12th Bns.

Edited 19 July , 2018 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[PRC]

2 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The Medal Roll is for 8th Bn but shows G/1949 H Humphries, KIA 16 Sep 16. Date of entry 31 May 1915.

Borth CWGC and the Effects show 1st Bn - unless there was a mistake on both sides then this points back to the unit entry being that which was shown when the forms noting the death were forwarded to the paymaster and records office from France.

 

Craig

 

1 hour ago, Skipman said:

 

It seems they were at Dainville on the 16th. Though, they did carry out nightly 'fatigue parties' it seems a bit far from the Somme?

 

One possible scenario - one battalion in the field has him as Humphries, the other Humphreys. Could be is wounded with the first one but recuperates in France, gets sent back to an Infantry Base Depot and gets sent to the second one, dies shortly thereafter. The paperwork covering the transfer hits the same records and pay office for both battalions, but its not straightforward because of the different spelling. By the time the over-worked clerk gets round to the difficult queries, our man is dead - and hey presto, it's someone elses problem !

 

Similarly the Imperial War Graves Commission knows it doesn't have an identified war grave for him. The information they probably have for him from the Army is that he was 1st Battalion Royal Fusiliers and died 16th September 1916. Tick those boxes and the answer is going to be remember him on the Thiepval Memorial. Doesn't mean any conscious effort has gone into identifying where he died and to be quite honest it wasn't the IWGCs' remit to sort out the Army's errors, (although they seem to have had a good stab).

 

Are the medal rolls in service number order or surname order? If its the former would be good to know if there is any pattern to the surrounding numbers - i.e did any of them start with the 8th Battalion and then move elsewhere, or did they start with the 1st - if Henry did serve with both battalions it might give some insight to the order of which.

 

One other possibility - I was just looking at the Battalion War Diary for the 7th Norfolk and the 9th Royal Fusiliers who were in the same Division. Even though neither had a second line unit the War Diary cover sheet for both for the period still refers to them as the 1/7th and 1/9th - so I suspect the 8th Battalion were also listed as the 1/8th. It's not unknown for that second number to be missed and men incorrectly shown as the 1st Battalion.

 

Must do some more digging,

 

Peter

[Skipman]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

 

Must do some more digging,

 

Peter

 

Good work Peter

[ss002d6252]

20 minutes ago, Skipman said:

 

Good work Peter

Looks like he was 1st battalion then at death.

 

Craig

[PRC]

Thanks Mike - I love it when a plan comes together :-)

 

So definately 1st Battalion at time of death but had previously served 8th Battalion. The 8th had seen some heavy fighting in the Hohenzollern Redoubt in October 1915 but by November the main problem seems to be Trench Foot \ Chillblains - the diary of the 9th Battalion Royal Fusiliers talks of losing 50 to 60 men to this alone, while the war diary of the 7th Royal Sussex in the same Brigade talks of many men being being sent to the Field Ambulance and of the need for Gum boots. However, seems unlikely to have resulted in three months in the UK. Maybe there are Field Ambulance \ Hospital Admission & Discharge record books that might provide a clue.

 

Neil,

 

Looks like some more dates to check out your local papers for. He would probably have been granted a weeks leave on discharge before heading back out to France so worthwhiie checking out late February \ early March 1916 as well.

 

Good luck with your search,

Peter

[Skipman]

Just now, ss002d6252 said:

Looks like he was 1st battalion then at death.

 

Craig

 

Yes it does. Not sure why I didn't see this entry earlier.

 

Mike

[Neil]

Thanks very much for all who spent time and effort researching this, it is much appreciated. 

 

The war diaries for 1st Btn have them enroute to "Bussus" on 6th September, and still there (parades, inspections, training, etc) on the 18th September. 

It also mentions they have "benefitted greatly" and will be "sorry to leave", having spent a "most enjoyable time" in Bussus. 

 

I'm still a bit confused about what lead to him being KiA during this time but it could well be, as previously mentioned, some kind of training accident. 

 

I will keep digging, but thanks for all you have found for my family.