English soldiers with Irish ancestry (2nd generation)

[TGM]

I  must admit my knowledge of C19th/C20th Irish-London political and family history is fairly patchy but I'm hoping someone could enlighten me ...

I've been researching a fallen captain on and off for a year or so. A medic by profession he enlisted in 1914, and makes Captain by 1917 and sees service in India and Mesopotamia until his death in 1919.
What intrigues me is that at times he or others dropped the O' surname prefix (though it is the same person - official records (including probate confirm this)) and I wonder whether this was common, a common mistake or an attempt to avoid discrimination or even association with his father.  I mention the latter because whilst searching newspaper archives I came across a few articles in a Dublin based newspaper which suggest his father (and seemingly he himself) were active members of the United Irish League of Great Britain, indeed his father is reportedly chair of a Greater London branch of the organisation.

 

My imagination has been running riot, but suspect I'm adding 2+2 and making 5.

 

Any thoughts or useful pointers to further reading are gladly received.

Edited 15 July , 2018 by TGM

[bill24chev]

I have had similer problems with my Irish ancestry.

 

As I understand it the "o" means grandson of ,and Mac means son of similer to the Scotish "Macs".

 

Again ,as I understand it, when the Grandfather dies the son and grandson move up the chain so to speke. The son of the deceased loses the "Mac" the grandson becomes the "Mac" and his son becomes "o".

 

However once my ancesters arrived in England the prefixes were no longer used.

 

My ancestry is further complicated by changes in the spelling of my surmane.

[museumtom]

Criteria for inclusion in 26 County Casualties of the Great War-

Born in the 26 Counties.

Lived in the 26 Counties.

Next of kin living in the 26 Counties.

Buried in the 26 Counties.

So he may be included if his parents were from the 26 Counties.

[Jervis]

Obviously it is hard to say for sure But I do think it is fairly common error, both in Ireland and more often outside Ireland. For
Example: It is  very common in the US for an Irish surname to be corrupted. It was said Ellis Island officials would write the name as they heard it and that was now that person's official surname. 

[depaor01]

Some families removed the O' and Mac deliberately to make their surnames less Irish sounding where they believed this would be an impediment. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

Some families removed the O' and Mac deliberately to make their surnames less Irish sounding where they believed this would be an impediment. 

 

    And, of course, the gaelicization of names can be a problem the other way.  Do we know what the attitude of the British military authorities was to those whose names were moved from English to Gaeilic versions????

8 hours ago, TGM said:

I  must admit my knowledge of C19th/C20th Irish-London political and family history is fairly patchy but I'm hoping someone could enlighten me ...

I've been researching a fallen captain on and off for a year or so. A medic by profession he enlisted in 1914, and makes Captain by 1917 and sees service in India and Mesopotamia until his death in 1919.
What intrigues me is that at times he or others dropped the O' surname prefix (though it is the same person - official records (including probate confirm this)) and I wonder whether this was common, a common mistake or an attempt to avoid discrimination or even association with his father.  I mention the latter because whilst searching newspaper archives I came across a few articles in a Dublin based newspaper which suggest his father (and seemingly he himself) were active members of the United Irish League of Great Britain, indeed his father is reportedly chair of a Greater London branch of the organisation.

 

My imagination has been running riot, but suspect I'm adding 2+2 and making 5.

 

Any thoughts or useful pointers to further reading are gladly received.

 

 

      May we ask who your casualty is?????

[depaor01]

15 minutes ago, voltaire60 said:

 

    And, of course, the gaelicization of names can be a problem the other way.  Do we know what the attitude of the British military authorities was to those whose names were moved from English to Gaeilic versions????

Interesting question.  I have had occasion to have to plough through many names of Irish Great War servicemen and have never come across seriously gaelic names like for instance Ó Buachalla or Macmathúna. Having said that, Norman-Irish names like Le Poer, a variant of my own name do appear. A CWGC download and sort of names could be revealing.

I might try tomorrow 

Dave

Edited 15 July , 2018 by depaor01

[Guest]

  Sorry to put you to work Dave. I associate the Gaelic chagning of names with the Sinn fein and GAA campaigns of the Edwardian decade. But it might obscure whether the Gaelic version of names was maintained  BEFORE that anywhere- so it might just show up in the older British recruiting records.   Just a thought. Of course, the poorer the Irish background and the more likely for the name to be anglicizied at time of enlistment.  It was just a speculation as to what happened. 

[Wexflyer]

5 hours ago, bill24chev said:

I have had similer problems with my Irish ancestry.

 

As I understand it the "o" means grandson of ,and Mac means son of similer to the Scotish "Macs".

 

Again ,as I understand it, when the Grandfather dies the son and grandson move up the chain so to speke. The son of the deceased loses the "Mac" the grandson becomes the "Mac" and his son becomes "o".

 

While that was the original system, the generational progression you describe ceased and patronymics became true surnames in Ireland around the 11th century. Quite early.

 

47 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

Interesting question.  I have had occasion to have to plough through many names of Irish Great War servicemen and have never come across seriously gaelic names like for instance Ó Buachalla or Macmathúna.

 

Of course not. There was no legal recognition of the Irish language.  Still isn't in six irish counties.

[Jervis]

9 hours ago, depaor01 said:

Some families removed the O' and Mac deliberately to make their surnames less Irish sounding where they believed this would be an impediment. 

 

True, but it does say in OP

 

16 hours ago, TGM said:

  I came across a few articles in a Dublin based newspaper which suggest his father (and seemingly he himself) were active members of the United Irish League of Great Britain, indeed his father is reportedly chair of a Greater London branch of the organisation.

 

His father was not hiding his background, quite the opposite -  being branch chair of a nationalist political party.   The son could of course have thought differently from his father, but OP does imply he too was member of united Irish League making it less likely he was obfuscating his Irishness. 

[TGM]

Just catching up with your responses - and thank you all.

 

At this stage I'm wary of mentioning the individual as he is connected with an organisation I volunteered with, but may message some of you, if that is O.K.? 

I think I was looking for an explanation of the alternate use of surnames which some of you suggest may be more a convention than artifice.  The connection with the United Irish League of Great Britain was some years before the outbreak of war, but I keep wondering what the mood/attitude would have been to a captain with such a background after 1916. 

 

NB. This particular gentleman is born of a commercial traveller, is public and Oxbridge educated, and probates the equivalent of £17,000 (=2018)

 

Over and out for now...

Edited 18 July , 2018 by TGM
typos