Lt Ernest Joseph Williams Royal Irish Rifles

[Dirty Harry]

Hello,

 

this is my first post :)

 

I am trying to research the first battle that I know he fought in, battle of Messines in June 1917. Now that is the start of my problems because whilst ernest would sadly be killed in oct 1918 the CWGC records show him under 5th bn attached to 2RIR, but when I looked at the war dairies for the 2 RIR he wasn't there.  He turned up in the 1 RIR diary for the date.  Now the Toronto stars obit claims he was wounded at messines, but neither 1st or 2nd bn took part in this action.  National archives record wo 339/77314 has to date not been digitized so I cant see his service record. How can I find which bn he served with at this time?

and secondly, if the Toronto star obit is correct how can I trace him being wounded and what would happen to him after that? are there records online I can use?

 

Would appreciate your help !

[DavidOwen]

Welcome to the forum

 

If you mean his service records at TNA here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1131145 I can highly recommend this researcher https://www.arcre.com/ who can photograph it for you if you wish? He did my grandfather's for me. Alternatively if you have a Find My Past subscription it may well be available there too.

 

His service record will have been heavily weeded but it often does contain the casualty record sheet which can give some very useful information.

 

I am sure a better expert will be along to to assist soon.

 

Good luck with your search.

 

David

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Dirty Harry and David,

I would agree with David's assessment.

Although I am an Australian I live in Germany and routinely use researchers (not the one recommended, but that is neither here nor there) to attain my Officer background research. Oftentimes the cost of research exceeds the price of the Medals being researched - but the main thing is to obtain a well-founded idea of the Recipients life and even his Image.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[MaureenE]

1 hour ago, DavidOwen said:

Welcome to the forum

 

If you mean his service records at TNA here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1131145 I can highly recommend this researcher https://www.arcre.com/ who can photograph it for you if you wish? He did my grandfather's for me. Alternatively if you have a Find My Past subscription it may well be available there too.

The Findmypast record in the WO 339 series is a transcript only, described as

WO 339 - Officers' services, First World War, regular army and emergency reserve officers. This series is presented on Findmypast as transcript-only. The transcripts were created from records and correspondences related to officers in the regular army and the emergency reserve during the First World War. These records have not yet been digitised but can be viewed in their original state at The National Archives, Kew, London.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/british-army-service-records

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Dirty Harry]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the replies.  Yes David that is my cousins file.  I live in northern Ireland so getting to kew is very unlikely so the service you suggest is great.  i will look in to it.

Kim,  where would you search to see is somebody s medals can be purchased?

Thanks Maureen,  i really want original files, so best way forward will be getting the files photographed.

 

I have come across a WD entry for his wounding in messines.  Anybody know how i can follow his trail from front to hospital etc?

 

Cheers,

 

Paul

 

[Dirty Harry]

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for the pics.  Those ones i haven't seen.  Could i be rude and ask the source?

secondly, the first pic mentions ernie being wounded, does it give a date anywhere?

 

Yes those were his brothers, only Harold Patton survived the war.  Ernie's centenary is coming up in October and i would like to have some sort of a picture of his life before then.

 

Cheers,

 

Paul

Edited 17 July , 2018 by Dirty Harry
forgot to add in

[museumtom]

There is no date on the image but it is from the Irish Independent during the war years. The other two images are from Our Heroes.

http://ourheroes.southdublinlibraries.ie/

 

Cheers.

 Tom.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Tom,

Brilliant finds!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Dirty Harry]

Hi Tom,

 

Thank You!

[Dirty Harry]

Random follow up question for 10 points.

 

I have no idea what happened to harold Patton Williams.

 

The last i have is his marrige to Elizabeth Dunlop in 1923, after that he kinda disappears.  I know he  worked for his fathers bank the savings bank, but i suspect he left for England ? any clues?

 

 

Cheers,

 

Paul

[museumtom]

Always happy to help. I will be offline for the next 10 days as I will be at the War and Peace Revival in Kent.

Cheers.

Tom.

[Jimmy Taylor]

From the 1st Royal Irish Rifles in the Great War

Lt. Ernest Joseph Williams. Born 11.10.1892 in Londonderry, the son of James Alfred and Emily Kate Williams née Beasley of The Willows, Northland Road, Londonderry. Father was a bank manager. Educated at Foyle College, Londonderry, and Strand School, London. Matriculated at the University of London. Had a medical examination at Regina, Canada, 25.1.1915. Height 5 foot 11 inches, weight 154 pounds, chest 38½–41½ inches, Church of Ireland. At enlistment, joined 46th Bn Canadian Infantry as Pte 26440. Transferred to 10th Bn Canadian Infantry, 28.8.1915, apparently on arrival in France. Applied for a commission, 23.12.1915, expressing a preference for 3rd RIR. Single, bank clerk, address in Londonderry as above. Correspondence address: L/Cpl 26440, 10th Bn, Canadian Expeditionary Force, France. To No. 2 Officer Cadet Bn at Pembroke College, Cambridge, 25.2.1916. Commissioned a 2/Lt. in 3rd RIR. Joined 2nd RIR, 13.9.1916. War Diary 2nd RIR, 15.2.1917: ‘2/Lt. E.J. Williams slightly injured, remained at duty. Cause of accident: premature explosion of No. 5 Mills Bomb.’ Irish Times 23.2.1917: ‘Mr J.A. Williams, actuary, Londonderry Savings Bank, has been notified that his second son, Lieutenant Ernest J. Williams, Royal Irish Rifles, has been accidentally wounded in France. Second Lieutenant Williams was in the service of the Bank of Montreal when the war broke out. He joined the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and after a winter’s active service in France received his commission in the Royal Irish Rifles, going to the front again last August. His only surviving brother, Temporary Captain H.P. Williams [Harold Patton Williams MC], Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, is at present on active service. His two other brothers, Captain C.E. Williams [2nd RIR] and Second Lieutenant Alfie Williams, both of the Royal Irish Rifles, were killed in action last year.’ [2/Lt. James Alfred Williams, RIR, born 1897, killed 6.9.1916.]

   Rejoined 2nd RIR from leave, 3.6.1917, and posted to C Coy. GSW right elbow 7.6.1917. Embarked Boulogne–Dover, 15 June, aboard HS St David. The MB at 1st Western General Hospital, Fazakerly, Liverpool, 3 July, stated Messines as the place of wounding; there was no damage to bones or nerves. Certified fit for general service 24.10.1917 and ordered to rejoin his unit. Promoted Lt. 7.1.1918. MBs at Belfast: 25 July, still considerable stiffness of right arm, unfit for general service for three months; 25 August, three weeks leave and then to rejoin unit at Holywood for home service, unfit for general service for one month; 24 October, now fit for general service and ordered to rejoin unit. Killed in action at Gulleghem, 15.10.1918, while serving with 1st RIR. Died a bachelor, intestate. WO telegram to father, 20 October. Effects in total consisted of an advance book, a cheque book, and a ‘disc’, sent to father. Various papers for his death show him as 5th RIR attached 2nd RIR. The actual death report is from OC 1st RIR. Burial report to father, 10.2.1919, stated Military Cemetery, near Ledeghem, west-north-west of Courtrai. This report also incorrectly shows 5th RIR attached 2nd RIR. Dadizeele New British Cemetery, Moorslede, II.B.1. File ref: WO339/77314  156719. A Ministry of Defence letter to Major M.D.C. Devlin, 8.6.1995, in reply to his letter of 4.1.1995, gave the service record as: Appointed to commission  as 2/Lt. in 3rd RIR, 25.2.1916. Posted 5th Bn and attached 2nd Bn ‘unknown date’.

[Dirty Harry]

Jimmy u r a star !!!

 

how did you find out all this information???

 

Here is what i have to date

He may have attended Foyle College.

Worked for Bank of Montreal

Signed up in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada, 25th January 1915, achieving the rank of lance corporal. yet his death in 1918 is recorded as being with the 5th Battalion, Royal Irish Rifles, attached to the 2nd Bn ! He was commissioned 7th July 1916 as a 2nd Lieutenant, obtaining the rank of Lieutenant. He is commemorated on the City of Londonderry War Memorial

 

Service Number CEF: 426440.

Joined the 46th Battalion (South Saskatchewan), 1st reinforcing draft, CEF. Battalion was authorized on 7 November 1914 and embarked for Britain on 23 October 1915. On 11 August 1916 it disembarked in France and Flanders until the end of the war. The battalion was disbanded on 30 August 1920.

Should appear on the nominal roll for this, check. He achieved the rank of Lance-Corporal, in the CEF.  He was later transferred to the Royal Irish Rifles. 

 

The Battalion was part of the 10th Infantry Brigade, 4th Canadian Division. The unit has come to be known as "The Suicide Battalion". The 46th Battalion lost 1,433 killed and 3,484 wounded – a casualty rate of 91.5 percent in 27 months.

The 46th Battalion recruited throughout Saskatchewan and was mobilized at Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.

The 46th Battalion had two Officers Commanding:

• Lt.-Col. H. Snell, 22 October 1915 – 29 August 1916
• Lt.-Col. H.J. Dawson, CMG, DSO, 29 August 1916-Demobilization

32nd Reserve Battalion, CEF

Departed Canada for Britain aboard the SS Elele 5th July, arrived 18th July 1915

10th Battalion, 2nd Infantry Brigade, 1st Division, CEF

1915

• The Second Battles of Ypres

– The Battle of Grafenstafel (22-23 April). One of the most famous of Canadian actions of the Great War, when following the German poison gas attack against French North African units that were holding the front line north of Ypres and adjacent to the Division, Canadian units filtered across to their left into the gas-contaminated area and carried out a series o important counter-attacks. In so doing they greatly assisted in stemming the German attack.

– The Battle of St Julien (24 April – 4 May).

• The Battle of Festubert (15 – 25 May)
• The Second Action of Givenchy (15-16 June)

1916

• The Battle of Mount Sorrel (2 – 13 June)
• The Battles of the Somme 1916

– The Battle of Flers-Courcelette (15 – 22 September)

– The Battle of Thiepval (26 – 28 September)

– The Battle of Le Transloy (1 – 18 October)

– The Battle of the Ancre Heights(1 October – 11 November)

•  

•  

•  

• Taken on strength 29 August 1915

29 Feb 1916 transferred to the 9th reserve training Battalion at Shorncliffe Kent having been granted a temporary commission in the 3rd Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers.  Double check, it does sy fusiliers.

•  

Ireland casualties of the war says he was with the 5th Battalion, attached to the 2nd RIR. Confirmed by the Soldiers died in the first world war list.

Royal Irish Rifles

5th (Extra Reserve) Battalion

August 1914 : at Downpatrick. A training unit of the Special Reserve, it moved on mobilisation to Belfast. Moved to Holywood in May 1915 and on to Ballykinlar in March 1918. Moved to England in April 1918, going to Larkhill.

1st Battalion

August 1914 : in Aden. Returned to UK and landed at Liverpool on 22 October 1914.

Moved to Hursley Park and came under command of 25th Brigade in 8th Division.

6 November 1914 : landed at Le Havre.

3 February 1918 : transferred to 107th Brigade in 36th (Ulster) Division.

2nd Battalion

August 1914 : at Tidworth. Part of 7th Brigade in 3rd Division.

14 August 1914 : landed at Rouen.

8 October 1915 : transferred with Brigade to 25th Division.

26 October 1915 : transferred to 74th Brigade in same Division.

13 November 1917 : transferred to 108th Brigade in 36th (Ulster) Division, absorbing 7th Battalion.

8 February 1918 : transferred to 107th Brigade in same Division.

Note from Londonderry Sentinel mentions his brothers, but also says he was accidentally wounded early in 1917.  Unit was Royal Irish Rifles. Saskatchewan Virtual war memorial stated he was wounded at the battle of messines in June 1917. 

Forces War records found a gunshot wound to the right arm on the 7th June 1917.  National Archive record MH106/499 for no11 casulaty clearing station. 8th june he is transferred to the no9 ambulance train.

1st Battalion RIR shows for the fateful day of 15th october Ernest was with the 1st Battalion, not the 2nd as stated in cwgc records.  Did he transfer across? unknown.  

He was killed near Courtrai.

1st Bn RIR joined the 107th Brigade, 36th Ulster Division in February 1918

 

[Dirty Harry]

follow up to your post Jimmy.  Found a photograph from July 1916 otc Cambridge which should/possibly include Ernest...

[Jimmy Taylor]

Glad it was useful. His file is at Kew under the reference shown.

 

[bartensabien]

 

2nd Lt Williams was KIA on the 15th October 1918, serving with the 1st R.I.R. 
The batalion was then fighting in my home town Gullegem
Below  an extract from the War Diary.

Edited 24 July , 2019 by bartensabien