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laughton

2nd Lt Maurice Humphris Garrett - 15th Bn. London Regiment (Prince of Wales' Own Civil Service Rifles)

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laughton
Quote

I come to this thread very late; all I want to say is that Maurice Garrett was my great uncle. It would be great to find his grave.

 

Added Saturday July 14, 2018 by RIchard Laughton:

The above quote is from the post of Robin Garrett who posted that notice in the topic Assevillers New British Cemetery where we found  2nd Lt. Alick Guyer Aylmer Aylmore - a case now before the CWGC. I believe Robin's post was on Sunday July 8th. I am making this notation as an edit in my response below, after which I am going to ask the Moderators (Spof) if they can split this topic from this Post #28 (and all that follows) and put it in a NEW TOPIC called "Looking for 2nd Lt Maurice Garrett 1/15 London Regiment". This will then be the first post in that new topic, which is now branching out to cover many other cemeteries where Maurice Garrett may be resting.

 

          Thanks to Spof / Admin the split has now taken place and 2/Lt Garrett has his own topic!

 

Original Post Continues:

A lot has happened since this case came to light. As Alan said "Maurice Garrett was killed somewhere in the area around Rancourt, St. Pierre Vaast Wood, Moislams".

 

I will note this to look at what cemeteries are in that area. I also now have access to all the war diaries.

 

The years seem to go by very quickly now!

Edited by laughton
See note above, asking for topic to be split - now complete

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Robin Garrett

Quicker and quicker the older you get!

The 1/15 London war diary includes a narrative of the operations over the period - Moislains was the general are of the objective.

 

Thanks - I'll have a look too

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Justinth
On 10/04/2017 at 06:53, laughton said:

Found them on Chris's web site - search engine worked perfectly! 

 

It would appear, but we would need facts, that the Brigade and Division were not in the Bapaume area other than in 1918:

 

Does anyone have a copy of:

 

The History Of The 47Th (London) Division 1914-1919: 47Th (London) Division 1914-1919 Paperback – 13 Feb 2009

by Alan H. Maude (Editor)

 

Following the long, long trail then I presume it was the "First Battle of Bapaume" where he would have been killed (remember this is a Canadian treading into British Operations without adequate training!) That puts them in the Third Army under Bing and in the heart of the action on 24-25 March 1918. Chris notes "Those men who died in this battle and have no known grave are commemorated on the Arras and Pozières Memorials, for Third and Fifth Armies respectively."

 

The unit landed in France in May of 1915, so is it possible that they were also in the Bapaume area (albeit it would have to be some distance to the southeast) in the Battle of the Somme 1916? The CWGC site tells us that there were four (4) Second Lieutenants killed in the area in mid-September 1916. Only one of those Bertram Knight War is on the Thiepval Memorial, so that does mean they were in the area. From where the known 2nd Lieutenants were buried, it appears they were in the area southeast of Albert and/or due south of Bapaume in the 1916 battles. It would appear that they were never as far east as Etricourt and it was past there that the remains were found. By the Second Battles of the Somme 1918 the 47th Division was in the Fourth Army under Rawlinson. In that period of August-September 1918, there are two (2) UNKNOWN Civil Service 2nd Lieutenants on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial. That only tells us that they fell after 8 August 1918 and not where they fell, so those will need to be checked (Hughes and Garrett).

 

The fact that all the others fell in the same area (i.e. Pte. E. W. Smith #535206) makes it obvious that it was March 1918, but the CWGC insists on confirmation of all the options. This is the COG-BR sheet with the 2nd Lieutenant and the others that were all recovered from the same area:

 

 

 

If you have not seen our format for the CWGC reports, for which they have given their blessing, you can link to all of them from here:

 

http://laughton.ca/publications/unknown-project/

 

The Canadians are linked to the CEFRESEARCH site and the OTHERS stayed on my site, as the CEFSG only deals with those in the Canadian Expeditionary Force or Airmen and Naval that were Canadian serving under the British authorities. Lieutenant Eaves report is a good example of what we need to do:

  1. Lieutenant Eaves Warlencourt British Cemetery Plot 5 Row K Grave 20 (19 January 2017 – CWGC Case No. 365)

 

The SSP 4995 burial report references show that the information for the graves against which this number was recorded came from German sources. See

 

S.S.P. Files

 

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/graves-registration-commission-directorate-of-graves-registration-enquiries-i-w-g-c-record-glossary/#unique-identifier34a

 

S.S.P. 4995 Files

 

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/graves-registration-commission-directorate-of-graves-registration-enquiries-i-w-g-c-record-glossary/#unique-identifier34b

 

Plus other associated German burial lists known as J.K. Lists

 

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/graves-registration-commission-directorate-of-graves-registration-enquiries-i-w-g-c-record-glossary/#unique-identifier22a

 

Best

 

 

Justin

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laughton

Robin:

 

Rancourt Military Cemetery has a few of the boys (CWGC Link) and may have some unknowns, will need to see if any COG-BR data.

 

You can also check these ones: Nearby Cemeteries

 

However, remember that CONCENTRATIONS later in the game depended on what cemetery was OPEN to accept concentrations. That cemetery could be a considerable distance away from where the remains were recovered.

 

The CWGC archive team does have the capability to search the database for concentrations from specific trench map coordinates.

 

Thanks to Justin for the SSP references! Learn something new every day.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

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Robin Garrett

Richard

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Robin

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Robin Garrett

I have checked on the CWGC for members of the CSR killed on 2 Sep 18 and the following cemeteries came up: Rancourt Mil Cmy (1), Heilly Station Cmy Mericourt l'Abbe (1), Peronne Communal Cmy Extension (12), Peronne Road Cmy, Maricourt (1). Nine, including Maurice Garrett, are commemorated on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial. The search didn't throw up any unknown 2Lts of course.

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laughton

Did you check all the GRRF and COG-BR documents in those cemeteries? If you did not I can collect them and put them in a ZIP file.

 

See here if you are not familiar: 

 

 

Edited by laughton

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Robin Garrett

I didn't and would be very grateful if you could put them together for me. Bit above my pay grade, I am afraid

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laughton

I am not at my main computer, so I am logging the details for a later search:

 

In each group is the cemetery page and then the first page to start the search:

 

Rancourt: https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2076006/rancourt-military-cemetery/

Looks like GRRF only: https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2622361.JPG

 

Heilly Station Cemetery, Mericourt-L'abbe (a big one!): https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/27100/heilly-station-cemetery,-mericourt-l'abbe/

GRRF starts here: https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2010557.JPG

 

Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension (moderate): https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/29501/peronne-communal-cemetery-extension/

GRRF: https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2460370.JPG

COG-BR: https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2483323.JPG (original cemetery just prior)

 

Peronne Road Cemetery, Maricourt (just before the extension) - use links above

 

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laughton

To start with, we are now looking for this man. I should have started this in a new at Post #28. If I was on the CEFSG I could do that but not here. Maybe a MOD can help me with that task? (that is now complete - 14 July 2018)

 

To start, we are now looking for Second Lieutenant Maurice Humphris Garrett, 15th Bn. London Regiment (Prince of Wales' Own Civil Service Rifles) for his Great Nephew, Robin Garrett. Maurice died 2 September 1918.

 

There are no "marked" unknown 2nd Lieutenants in the Rancourt Military Cemetery. You can download the new (very small) ZIP File here:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/qxwvs3m47pfia3g/GRRF_2622361-2622366.zip/file

I did not see any COG-BR documents for this cemetery. The only possibility was the identification of the UNKNOWN LANCE CORPORAL in Plot 1 Row B Grave 2 who died on 10.9.18. A quick search of the CWGC tells (CWGC Link) us there were 20 British Lance Corporals killed in France on that day, 8 of whom are on the Vis-en-Artois memorial as UBS. Of those only 1 is from the London Regiment (City of London Rifles) COG-BR 2622364 by the name of L/Cpl Richard Gilson #320327. He is listed as 2nd/6th Battalion, but the LLT tells us that they were absorbed by the 1st/6th Battalion on 31 January 1918, so that record needs to be updated by the CWGC (if someone wants to let them know). Apparently it was renamed the 6th Battalion, without any reference to the 1st or 2nd. The LLT says 58th London Division, 174th Brigade. The war diary (page 2 of 119) still records them as 1/6 London Regt. The battalion was holding the line at E.12.c on the 9th and casualties are reported (war diary page 96 of 119). They moved through Moislains (62c.C.18) so they are about 4,500 yards southeast of Rancourt (62c.C.1) before moving to the Epehy and Ste. Emilie sector (62c.E.12). There is a detailed summary of the operations from September 6th to 10th (war diary page 102 of 119). If there is a COG-BR and he was found just south of Epehy, then that is most likely the Lance Corporal. Without that, one would need to prove that any of the other 7 Lance Corporals were not in the area.

 

I shall return to look at the other cemeteries.

 

 

 

Edited by laughton
Maurice died 2 September 1918.

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Robin Garrett

I have been looking at the report submitted to HQ 140 Bde by CO 15 Londons on the operations of the battalion from 22/8/18 to 6/9/18. The penultimate paragraph states:

 

"7/9/18 In the morning the bodies of those killed on 2/9/18 near Moislains, were buried". 

 

Describing what happened on 2/9/18, the report states "From the outset the Brigade came under heavy shell and M.G. fure, and, as it moved down the slopes to the S.W. of Moislains, under still heavier M.G. fire directed from the village and from both flanks. In spite of the casualties monting to over half its strength the Battn. succeeded in establishing itself in MOISLAAINS TRENCH ….".

 

As the battalion started its advance in the old quarry in grid square C20, I deduce that the men killed fell in grid squares C16, C17 and C22.

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laughton
2 hours ago, Robin Garrett said:

7/9/18 In the morning the bodies of those killed on 2/9/18 near Moislains, were buried

 

Does it say anything about whether they recovered them and buried them that day - which would make sense or did they have them somewhere for 5 days? That is of value to many cases as I have never heard of them holding remains for burial.

 

The information might be in the Chaplains war diary if such an item exists in this case.

 

Okay I found it here: 7 September 1918 (war diary page 393 of 442) - they cleared them from the battlefield. There is a notation there that the NARRATIVE went with the August war diary, so we have to backup a bit. Here it is:

 

1/9/18 page 388 of 442

page 389 of 442

 

It jumps from the 1st to the 3rd so the 1st and 2nd must be continuous. They report burial of dead in the rear of Moislains Trench in C.17.a and b. They say 25 men were buried in the hour and many were left.

 

They report (war dairy page 392 of 442):

  • 7/9/18
    In the morning the bodies of those killed on 2/9/18 near MOISLAINS, were buried.

Killed in Action - 4 Officers and 35 OR

Died of wounds - 4 OR

Missing - 1 Officer 38 OR


The CWGC list has 24 dead for the 2 September 1918 and 36 for the 1st to 3rd, so some are missing? 2nd Lt Garrett is the only officer, plus 8 OR, on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial. Okay I see, the war diary list is August 31 to September 6th, so Garrett is the only officer missing from the 1st to 3rd. He must be the one that is listed as "missing". There are no Garrett listings on the ICRC website (this listing).

 

 

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Robin Garrett

Thanks Richard - amazing research. I guess it's looking increasingly unlikely Garrett's grave will be identified.

 

I am planning to walk the course sometime reasonably soon. It'll take a bit more research to put it all into context; I need the 140 War Diary to get their Op O, particularly for the brigade and battalion boundaries.

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laughton
  • 1/9/18 Bn HQ north of Le Forest in B.11.c.9.2 with advance HQ in shell hole hear assembly positions
  • shell burst in mouth of BN HQ killing 3 including Signalling Sergeant Moore
    • see COG-BR 2483832 where Moore concentrated to Perrone Road British Cemetery (not done for zip files) from 62c.A.15.c.5.0
      (see answer to location below image/map inserted below text *)
  • Z hr 5:30 am following creeping barrage to support positions in Alert and Absinthe Trenches
  • attack successfull but Lt. Laselles CO C Coy and 2/Lt Kirk KIA early in advance (Kirk's 1st day in France!)
  • advance Bn HQ in Abode Lane 62c.C.2.c.4.7, Bn HQ 62c.C.1.c.5.3
  • 11:30 pm relieve by 18th LR and marched to assembly position on Rancourt-Peronne Rd 300 yards north of the Old Quarry (C.20 central)
     
  • 74th Division to attack from south of 141st Bde boundary at 62c.C.10.c.7.9 with a final objective of Nurlu (62c.D.4 - off the map below)
  • Z hr 5:30 am and 140th Bde moved down slopes to southwest of Moislains under heavy MG fire from village and flanks
  • 50% casualties to Bn but established in Moislains Trench
  • enemy in both Moislains Trench to left and Quarry Trench to left rear - simultaneous counter attacks, both parados and parapet manned
  • 74th Division not able to take Moislains - enemy field gun firing over open sites fro, south of village 1000 yds east of canal
  • 25 men of 15th Bn found in rear of Moislains Trench in 62c.C.17.a and b - 25 men found and buried in the hour (it makes it appear at that time not days later?)
  • it appeared the 74th Division never got to the front at Moislains but was actually behind, only 300 yd east of Rancourt-Peronne Road starting point
  • 15th Bn withdrew at 10:30 pm on the 2nd back to rest in trenches at C.2 central

 

gk2cd2u7qy20jbp6g.jpg

 

* It appears that the location of the cemetery at 62c.A.15.c.5.0 may be at an aid station or casualty clearing station, etc. It is the same location where the sole Canadian (Sapper Edward Bills #68235) was recovered. He was serving with the 4th Bn. Canadian Railway Troops when he died of injuries (thus at some care centre), after he was struck by a locomotive while returning back to camp one dark night. His "Circumstance of Casualty Form" provides the answer, as he was exhumed from the "De La Cote Military Cemetery, Maricourt", which was located 4.5 miles southwest of Combles. You will note the document says he was taken to the 5th Corps Rest Station where he was examined by a medical officer. Got a break on this one finding him in the same place as Moore!

 

w99780yu87afdtx6g.jpg

 

s9f5ttotn83ap4f6g.jpg

 

Edited by laughton
added text below image

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laughton

The text for two of the earlier posts did not get moved, so for now I will place them here before I start on the Peronne Road Cemetery.

  • Heilly Station Cemetery, Mericourt-L'abbe, although a large cemetery with multiple burials per grave, is a medical burial ground. As such, I will leave it for now and go on to the Perrone Communal Cemetery Extension. Heilly also only has GRRF documents, no COG-BR, which is typical of medical cemeteries.

The 36th Casualty Clearing Station was at Heilly from April 1916. It was joined in May by the 38th, and in July by the 2/2nd London, but these hospitals had all moved on by early June 1917. The cemetery was begun in May 1916 and was used by the three medical units until April 1917. From March to May 1918, it was used by Australian units, and in the early autumn for further hospital burials when the 20th Casualty Clearing Station was there briefly in August and September 1918. The last burial was made in May 1919. There are now 2,890 Commonwealth servicemen of the First World War buried or commemorated in this cemetery. Only 12 of the burials are unidentified and special memorials are erected to 21 casualties whose graves in the cemetery could not be exactly located. The cemetery also contains 83 German graves. The burials in this cemetery were carried out under extreme pressure and many of the graves are either too close together to be marked individually, or they contain multiple burials. Some headstones carry as many as three sets of casualty details, and in these cases, regimental badges have had to be omitted. Instead, these badges, 117 in all, have been carved on a cloister wall on the north side of the cemetery. 

  •  Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension

    ZIP Files:

    http://www.mediafire.com/folder/843dp6xc9rp6p/Peronne_Communal_Cemetery_Extension

     

    I am working my way through the COG-BR documents. A number of possible finds (Case #1 is here). A lot of the dates that are 3.3.18 are actually 22.3.18. There are also a lot of cases that do not seem to exist - nobody of that unit dead on that date. Possible that dates were on original crosses as date of burial not date of death - that happens!

     

    Trying to identify the cemeteries on the COG-BR documents:

    • Alan says Copse Trench is 62c.C.22.d.65.30
    • Lieramont Communal Cemetery German Extension appears to be 62c.E.7.a.8.5 (see COG-BR 2483405-410)
    • Vaux Wood British Cemetery should be around 62c.G.4.c - for the men of the London Regiment - have not come to it yet
    • Moslains Churchyard Cemetery (has the Canadian) COG-BR 2483405 62c.E.8.c.4.2 - that works on war diary for LSH March 1917
    • Large group of 114 men at 62c.D.4.c.6.4 on COG-BR 2483415-420 (including the mysterious Australian #1690 - only one missing died in 1916)
    • also a lot of bodies moved around within the cemetery to make space or limit number in trench burial to 10
    • SSP code on COG-BR 2483433 for JustinH
    • group of London Regiments (15th, 17th, 21st) at 62c.C.16.d.6.3 on COG-BR 2483445, 446 and rest on 2483451
      • that area is south of Vaux Wood and west of Moislains
      • most casualties are on 9th and 10th September 1918 and 2nd Lt Garrett was 2nd September 1918
      • another batch on COG-BR 2483453, including an unknown Cpl of 21/London with 2 wound stripes KIA 12 September 1918
        • none are in the period from August to November
        • closest of 14 Corporals missing in September is Corporal Kelly, 41st Bn, 10 September 1918
        • Private James of the 51st Bn, the only man missing in 12 September 1918
        • no men of the 21st London Regiment missing at any time in September (CWGC Link)
        • beside him is a Sergeant "M. S. M." of the London Regiment for the same date who does not exist (CWGC Link)
      • another batch 15 London's COG-BR 2483479, an unknown in 4.K.19, more on COG-BR 2483488 and again at 4483490 (2 unknown)
    • We have the cemetery list from David Avery, I will have to look up some of the others there and see if that helps:
       

  • FOUND ON LIST
    • COPSE TRENCH CEMETERY, ALLAINES 62c.C.22.d.65.30
    • DRIENCOURT BRITISH CEMETERY 62c.J.9.b.5.3
    • LIERAMONT COMMUNAL CEMETERY GERMAN EXTENSION 62c.E.7.b.1.8
    • MADAME MILITARY CEMETERY 62c.C.25.b.5.8
    • MOISLAINS BRITISH CEMETERY 62c.C.17.c.3.4
    • TEMPLEUX-LA-FOSSE GERMAN CEMETERY 62c.D.29.c.8.5
    • VAUX WOOD BRITISH CEMETERY, VAUX-SUR-SOMME 62c.G.4.c.8.3
  • NOT ON LIST
    • AIZECOURT-LE-HAUT CHURCHYARD EXTENSION
    • CARTIGNY COMMUNAL CEMETERY AND GERMAN EXTENSION
    • MOISLAINS CHURCHYARD
    • MOISLAINS GERMAN HOSPITAL CEMETERY

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laughton

Peronne Road Cemetery, Maricourt

ZIP FIles:

http://www.mediafire.com/folder/3w6n64z6aexum/Peronne_Road_Cemetery%2C_Maricourt

 

While looking at the war diary for the 1/15 London Regiment (Post #14) it became obvious that a number of the men that may apply to this case were in this cemetery due to their concentration from other smaller cemeteries. In the reference above we saw that Serjeant Moore (British) and Sapper Bills (Canadian) had previously been in the De La Cote Military Cemetery, Maricourt located at 62c.A.15.c.5.0. From that point we knew we had to check the complete cemetery for potential candidates.

 

This is the text from the CWGC to which I will add the information (bolded) on the location of the concentration cemeteries, such as found be Sapper Bills location or what is on the list from David Avery (DAL): (note some are struck on the DAL which may just mean they no longer existed at that time due to their concentration elsewhere)

Quote

Maricourt was, at the beginning of the Battles of the Somme 1916, the point of junction of the British and French forces, and within a very short distance of the front line; it was lost in the German advance of March 1918, and recaptured at the end of the following August. The Cemetery, originally known as Maricourt Military Cemetery No.3, was begun by fighting units and Field Ambulances in the Battles of the Somme 1916, and used until August 1917; a few graves were added later in the War, and at the Armistice it consisted of 175 graves which now form almost the whole of Plot I. It was completed after the Armistice by the concentration of graves from the battlefields in the immediate neighbourhood and from certain smaller burial grounds, including:- AUTHUILE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION ( DAL 57d.W.6.c.2.8), which was on the South side of the Communal Cemetery. It contained the graves of 108 French soldiers and those of 23 from the United Kingdom who fell in 1915 and early 1916. BRIQUETERIE EAST CEMETERY, MONTAUBAN (DAL 62c.A.4.b.5.5), on the East side of the brick-works between Maricourt and Montauban, containing the graves of 46 soldiers from the United Kingdom who fell in the latter half of 1916. CARNOY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION (DAL 62c.A.13.d.35.55 for Carnoy Military Cemetery), in which 36 French soldiers and one from the United Kingdom were buried in March 1918. CASEMENT TRENCH CEMETERY, MARICOURT (DAL struck out but 62c.A.10.b.3.6?), on the West side of the road to the Briqueterie, in which 163 soldiers from the United Kingdom and one from South Africa were buried in 1916-1918. FARGNY MILL FRENCH MILITARY CEMETERY, CURLU (DAL - not on list), on the North bank of the Somme, in which six soldiers from the United Kingdom and two from Australia were buried in 1916-1918. LA COTE MILITARY CEMETERY, MARICOURT (BILLS 2483852 62c.A.15.c.5.0), a little way West of Peronne Road Cemetery, containing the graves of 38 soldiers from the United Kingdom and one from Australia (also Edward Bills from Canada) who fell in 1916-1917. MARICOURT FRENCH MILITARY CEMETERY (DAL Maricourt Military Cemetery? 62c.A.22.b.0.5), on the South side of the village, containing the graves of two soldiers from the United Kingdom who fell in December 1916. MONTAUBAN ROAD FRENCH MILITARY CEMETERY, MARICOURT (DAL Montauban Road Cemetery, Carnoy? 62c.A.8.a.8.3), in which six men of the 1st/8th King's Liverpools were buried in August 1916. TALUS BOISE BRITISH CEMETERY, CARNOY (DAL struck out 62c.A.14.b.5.4), between Carnoy and Maricourt, at the South end of a long copse. It was used in the latter half of 1916 and (chiefly by the 5th Royal Berks) in August 1918, and it contained the graves of 175 soldiers from the United Kingdom and five from South Africa. There are now 1348, 1914-18 war casualties commemorated in this site. Of these, 366 are unidentified and special memorials are erected to 26 soldiers from the United Kingdom known or believed to be buried among them. Other special memorials record the names of three soldiers from the United Kingdom, buried in other cemeteries, whose graves could not be found. The cemetery covers an area of 3,787 square metres and is enclosed on three sides by a low red brick wall.

 

The files are downloaded but I have not gone through them as of this date and time - soon!

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laughton

Here is where it stands:

  • UBS 15th London Regiment 2.E.29 COG-BR 2483776 but not an officer
  • unknown 2nd Lt in 2.F.24 but appears he is Lancashire Fusiliers COG-BR 2483780

I did not see any others that might apply within this cemetery.

 

It is always worth a look and it appears there may be an identifiable CSM who I have now posted here.

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Robin Garrett

Lt Col Rowland Fielding's letters to his wife were published in 1929 as "War Letters to a Wife". Fielding was the CO. In a PS on page 311, he says: "While waiting yesterday morning [7 Sep] for the buses to arrive, with some of my officers, I explored the battlefield of 2 September. …………. We buried an officer and 24 men of the Civil Service Rifles there and the, and ……"

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laughton

Is there an exact list of the 24 men by name?

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Robin Garrett

Sadly not. I quoted exactly what he wrote.

In the CO's narrative he gives (as you quote above) the officer casualties between 31 Aug and 6 Sep as: 4 killed, 6 wounded and one missing. In the narrative he says that on 1 Sep early in the advance Lt Lascelles and 2Lt Kirk were killed. The former is buried in Hem Farm Military Cemetery, the latter is commemorated on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial. Neither of these two can be the officer buried near Moislains on 7 Sep. The CO doesn't say when the other two officers died but we know 2Lt Garrett died on 2 Sep; we don't know about he fourth officer. On 3 and 4 Sep the battalion rested and on 5 Sep the narrative states Lt Upton was wounded. There was more action on 6 Sep but no mention of officer casualties. It seems likely, therefore that the fourth officer was killed on 2 Sep - a pity Lt Col Fielding didn't name him (or Garrett). I searched for officers killed between 1 and 6 Sep without specifying regiment, as I think you did, on the CWGC site but I couldn't find another likely candidate from any of the London Regiments who died on 2 Sep.

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laughton
On 14/07/2018 at 10:54, laughton said:

beside him is a Sergeant "M. S. M." of the London Regiment for the same date who does not exist (CWGC Link)

 

The above was in post #15 above. In reviewing the file this morning, to see if we can match names, I notice that the CWGC Link in the quote had been set to search for an Australian. I must have been working on something else at the same time! :o He is on COG-BR 2483453, with the Corporal, both killed on 12 September 1918 - as are many others on that list, all more or less in the same location (62c.C.16.d.6.4). Perhaps there is a clue in here as to why we can not locate the UNKNOWNS? These men in Polt 5 Row E are also listed on GRRF 2460447. It appears that all the grave numbers were shifted "down one" between the COG-BR and GRRF

That data tells us we can forget about any of the dates shown on the COG-BR, which often suggests the CROSS on the grave (all are reported to have crosses on the COG-BR) is a reference to the date the body was either recovered or buried. We do not know who initially recovered the body or marked the grave.

 

Some inferences:

 

  1. The Unknown Corporal with the 2 Wound Stripes had the same references at Pte. Hartopp so he could have also been East Surrey Regiment, posted 1st/21st London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles) 1 September 1918. There are 281 British Corporals listed on the CWGC as buried in France for the period 1-12 September 1918. Three (3) are listed on the Loos Memorial (CWGC Link) and 57 of the Thiepval Memorial (CWGC Link). I took the 57 on Thiepval and looked for any references similar to what is in the list of men above. That immediately showed that there is only one missing Corporal of the 1/21st (County of London) Battalion (First Surrey Rifles) and he is a likely candidate for 2 wound stripes given that he as the "MM and Bar". His date of death was 2 September 1918. He is listed as Corporal William Edward Harris #650328. His Medal Rolls Index Card shows that he had an initial designation as "Private #1900 21/ Lond. R.". His Service Record appears not to have survived within the group of 13 for the London Regiment. It also states that he was KIA on 1 September 1918, not on the 2nd shown by the CWGC, which is the same day that Private Hartop of the same unit was killed.
     
    surname initials death regiment secondary unit #
    BRADSTREET F 01-09-18 East Surrey Regiment   8th Bn. '4945'
    WRIGHT L 01-09-18 East Surrey Regiment   8th Bn. '27157'
    GOODSELL C 02-09-18 King's Royal Rifle Corps London Regiment 1st/15th Prince of Wales' 'R/32900'
    KERENS H 04-09-18 King's Royal Rifle Corps   2nd Bn. 'R/22547'
    LESERVE L A N 05-09-18 London Regiment London Regiment 7th Bn. '353222'
    HUTT F 06-09-18 London Regiment   1st/13th Kensington Bn. '493845'
    STEWART E T 06-09-18 London Regiment   1st/20th Bn. '631341'
    WATSON W W 01-09-18 London Regiment   1st/20th Bn. '632517'
    DALE J 02-09-18 London Regiment (City of London Rifles)   1st/6th Bn. '323293'
    HARRIS, MM & Bar W E 01-09-18 London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles)   1st/21st Bn. '650328'
    FENWICK J 03-09-18 London Regiment (London Irish Rifles)   1st/18th Bn. '608723'
    FULCHER H A 08-09-18 London Regiment (Queen Victoria's Rifles)   2nd/9th Bn. '392035'
    HOLLOWAY A C R J 08-09-18 London Regiment (Queen Victoria's Rifles)   2nd/9th Bn. '391418'

     
  2. If there was a missing Serjeant in the same period, he may or may not have been from the London Regiment. Often they struck out information on a GRRF when they could not find the person, but his COG-BR classification was clear. There are 231 British Army Serjeants lost at that time in France, of which 45 are on the Vis-En-Artois Memorial (CWGC Link). FIfteen (15) of them are in the Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension as well. None have them have initials anything close to "M.S.M." so is that to another reference? Is it possible that he had a "Meritorious Service Medal" (Recipients were entitled to use the post-nominal letters "MSM")? There are 51 British Serjeants commemorated in France in the Great War with the MSM (CWGC Link). Of these three (3) are on the Arras Memorial, one (1) on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial and two (2) on the Pozieres Memorial. There is only one (1) of the London Regiment, lost on 21 March 1918 and only one (1) lost in September 1918, but not of the London Regiment.
     
    • Serjeant Francis Shelley Radford #608361
      Died 21/03/1918 1st/18th Bn. London Regiment (London Irish Rifles) formerly 2nd/5th Bn. London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade)
      141st Brigade 47th (2nd London) Division
      Attacked in the La Vacquerie Sector 57c.R.15.b (war diary page 269 of 403)
       
    • Serjeant Fred Ellis #8199
      Died 19/09/1918 10th Bn. West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)
      50th Brigade 17th (Northern) Division
      Appears to be in 57c.W.6.d.6.2 Gauche Alley

      Looks like I will have to check the other four (4).

 

This tells us that we have to take any of the listings in this cemetery as potentially having some errors. Most importantly we cannot accept the date or the regiment on the COG-BR as being correct. That would also apply to any listings that might relate to 2nd Lt Maurice Humphris Garrett, the officer we are searching for in this topic.

Edited by laughton

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laughton

Back to what may be the list of the 24 men and an Officer reported in the old literature. If we use the CWGC database we can start with this table. The last 4 on the table I added as I was going through the documents as they "caught my eye". Captain Leighton may be attached to the Artist's Rifles but found in the same location. There are two in V.L.25 and V.L.29 that are amongst all the KNOWN and found in the same location.

 

It gives on the impression that the ground was well searched and if the Officer (2nd Lt. Garrett) was buried with them, he should have been exhumed at the same time. I have to check if I have already looked at ALL THE UNKNOWNS in the cemetery (as we did for CA40 at Nine Elms) to see if there are enough UNKNOWNS here to account for all the missing.

 

As noted in the post above, you can forget about any of the dates that are mentioned on the COG-BR as all those below (down to YOUNG) were casualties of 2 September 1918.

 

Seems logical that if they found 2nd Lt. Garrett then he is in the extension.

 

This may appear to be a tedious and/or useless exercise but it is often through this slow process that a clue developes, usually because there is something about one man that leads to another. Fortunately for our Canadian men we still of the "Circumstance of Casualty" records so we can check on each person (se post #14 above as an example). For the British that appears to be sadly gone. Captain Leighton, for example, provided an important clue - that being that they did not bury the Officers in a separate location, as he was with all the NCOs and ORs.

 

surname initials rank 1/15th LR # cemetery or memorial reference Location COG-BR
DARMODY, MM J F Corporal 15th Bn. '532701' HEILLY STATION CEMETERY, MERICOURT-L'ABBE VII. B. 44. no COG-BR  
BIRD C D Private 15th Bn. '535584' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. L. 27. 62c.C.16.d.6.3 2483490
BISHOP B A Private 15th Bn. '548115' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION IV. J. 20. no COG-BR  
GARNHAM E J Private 15th Bn. '548065' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. C. 28. 62c.c.16.d.6.4 2483451
GARRETT E A Private 15th Bn. '548095' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION III. K. 37. 62c.C.16.d.5.9 2483462
HULEATT R Q Corporal 15th Bn. '532962' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. L. 28. 62c.C.16.d.6.5 2483490
KIRKNESS J Private "C" Coy. '532149' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. L. 24. 62c.C.16.d.6.5 2483490
KNIGHT, MM & Bar N C Serjeant "C" Coy. '531510' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. J. 22. 62c.c.16.d.6.3 2483487
MERRICKS C G Private   '535451' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. C. 21. 62c.C.16.d.5.4 2483453
PYE C H Private 15th Bn. '532877' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. J. 25. 62c.c.16.d.6.3 2483445
TAYLOR P E L/Cprl 15th Bn. '537094' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. E. 20. 62c.C.16.d.5.4 2483453
WHEDDON W H Corporal 15th Bn. '530187' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. J. 30. 62c.C.16.d.6.3 2483488
WILSON L C Private 15th Bn. '548137' PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. L. 30. 62c.C.16.d.6.3 2483490
GLITHERO T A L/Cprl 15th Bn. '531939' PERONNE ROAD CEMETERY, MARICOURT II. A. 1. found in cemetery 2483759
WILKINS H A Private 15th Bn. '537294' RANCOURT MILITARY CEMETERY B. 1. no COG-BR  
GARRETT M H 2nd Lt 15th Bn.   VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL Panel 10.    
MEAGER J Private 1st/15th Bn. '533674' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL Panel 10.    
NEAVE L J Private 1st/15th Bn. '534766' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL Panel 10.    
NEWLAND F W Private 1st/15th Bn. '536773' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL Panel 10.    
PAYN E W Private 1st/15th Bn. '533122' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL Panel 10.    
PORTER H E Private 1st/15th Bn. '548057' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL Panel 10.    
PRICE W J Private 1st/15th Bn. '534291' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL Panel 10.    
TILLEY F J Private 1st/15th Bn. '537449' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL Panel 10.    
YOUNG C W C Private 1st/15th Bn. '531550' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL Panel 10.    

Unknown

    15th Bn.   PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. L. 25. 62c.C.16.d.6.5 2483490
Leighton A Captain     PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. L. 26. 62c.C.16.d.6.5 2483490
Unknown         PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. L. 29.    
Burowes       548055 RANCOURT MILITARY CEMETERY B. 10. no COG-BR  

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