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kemp52

9th Lancers

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kemp52

Hello , perhaps you could help. I am researching a certain John Ambrose Lemon of the 9th Lancers ,his numbers on the medal card are 315394 and L5084. I do not seem to be able to locate his service record on Ancestry but on his Medal cards it states that the medals were forfeit Circa 1921.. can anyone please suggest as to why that was or where the information is held etc. Any help would be most appreciated. Andy.

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clk

Hi,

 

His medal roll record says "forfeits under para 392 XII KR 4/8/21". I don't know if the 1912 Regs were still in place, but if they were that would relate to discharge as a consequence of having been sentenced to penal servitude.

 

Regards

Chris

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ss002d6252
2 hours ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

His medal roll record says "forfeits under para 392 XII KR 4/8/21". I don't know if the 1912 Regs were still in place, but if they were that would relate to discharge as a consequence of having been sentenced to penal servitude.

 

Regards

Chris

An amended version of the KR came out in late 1914 and 1923 so I expect that in 1921 it was the same as shown the 1914 version (which was an updated 1912 version). In the updated 1914 version XII was the same as the 1912 version.

 

Craig

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clk

Thanks Craig for the clarification.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

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ss002d6252

The Court Martial registers held on Fold3 confirm he was sentenced in 1921 (The Ancestry transcription confirms the Lancers but doesn't give the reason, that is only on Fold3's copy of the register)

image.png.71edfc381edb34c1cd59f13780a070e8.png

 

Craig

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Perth Digger

Andy

Fold 3 has a few extra details of the court-martial.

Pvte J.A. Lemon, 9th Lancers, c/m Longford 10 Jan 1921. Guilty of desertion, absence and loss of public property (probably his kit). 

Sentence: 84 days detention + stoppage of pay. In the REMARKS column it has: 60 days and 28 days FP (field punishment). 

 

No sign of penal servitude, but he may have been convicted in a civilian court while a deserter?

 

Mike

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Usually detention would be up to 28 days for desertion but they had the option to extend that to 112 days in some cases (although the CM were not specifically bound by the guidance and could vary it based on the overall severity as long as the sentence was legal).

Craig

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ss002d6252

The Enlistment Register held by FMP states

image.png.1217ecde28b5984e2edafbc8bed65bc6.png

Craig

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kemp52

Thank you very much for the information  you have given.  May i ask if  you think the Penal Servitude was in fact the 88 days detention awarded in the Courts Martial.   I note that the sentence says CM Longford ,,what or where would that be.?  Regarding the Medal Roll could one deduce from that the Troop or Squadron he was in ?   Many Thanks ,,Andy , 

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46 minutes ago, kemp52 said:

Thank you very much for the information  you have given.  May i ask if  you think the Penal Servitude was in fact the 88 days detention awarded in the Courts Martial.   I note that the sentence says CM Longford ,,what or where would that be.?  Regarding the Medal Roll could one deduce from that the Troop or Squadron he was in ?   Many Thanks ,,Andy , 

The Court Martial was held at Longford. I think that would be the cavalry barracks at Longford, Ireland.

 

Craig

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Mark Lemon

Hi there,

 

It's Mike (perth digger) that I need to contact.

 

I am the grandson of Private John Ambrose Lemon. My good friend Andy enquired about my grandfathers ww1 medals being forfeited for reasons of desertion. I know he was court martialed (sorry if it's spelt wrong) in 1921 at Longford; Mike replied to Andy suggesting he found a few extra details eg, guilty of desertion, loss of property etc. I ha ve the bulk of the info but not what Mike referred to.

 

Mike, if you could message me back and tell me exactly where or how you searched Fold3 to get that record I'd be extremely grateful as I have a few days left before my free trial comes to an end and I'd just like to download and print off the info.

 

Hope this message gets to you.

 

Mark Lemon.

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Perth Digger

Mark

Welcome to the Forum.

 

The source of the above details is: Judge Advocate General's Office: District Courts-Martial Registers, Home, TNA (National Archives) PRO WO 86/91, pp.109-110. "Fold 3" is just the Ancestry platform to access the c-ms (once you've paid more than your annual subscription). 

 

I can't send you the pages, by message, because you need to have posted a few times to open that faciilty, so I'll send them to Andy (kemp52).

 

You don't need to join Fold 3. There is nothing else there.

 

Mike

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Perth Digger

Mark

Sorry I can't attach the pages.

 

MIke

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Mark Lemon

Thanks Mike, it’s a great help.

 

I’ll speak to Andy when I see him at work.

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Perth Digger

I'm afraid that I've not been able to pass on the two pages to ANdy, but there's nothing there that you haven't got now.

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Mark Lemon

No worries Mike, thanks for doing this.

 

Maybe something else you could guide & give me your thoughts on:

I have tried searching for my grandfathers service record through Ancestry but to avail. I called the National Archives at Kew but was told if the search I made via Ancestry provided nothing then I have to assume that his service records were destroyed in the MOD bombing during the Second World War where many records were destroyed.

 

Apart from getting his basic records from Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933, I wrote to the Royal 9th & 12th Lancers museum and got a reply I wasn’t expecting from Angela Tarnowski in 2015 which raised more questions than it answered. This is what she could tell me: (sorry it seems long winded)

 

 

I am writing with regard to your request for information on the service of 5084 Private J Lemon, 9th Lancers which was forwarded by my colleagues at the Queen’s Royal Lancers Museum.

 

The 9th/12th Royal Lancers Museum does not hold the service papers of soldiers who served in the Army. The records of soldiers who served before 1920 are held at The National Archive, Kew, Surrey, TW9 4DU, and the service papers of soldiers who served after 1920 are held at the Army Personnel Centre, Historic Disclosures, Mailpoint 400, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow, G2 8EX. However, the 9th/12thLancers Museum holds an extensive but incomplete collection of regimental archives, including nominal rolls, medal rolls, marriage registers and diaries some of which give information on the service of individual soldiers.

 

According to the 9th Lancers Nominal Roll 1914-1918, and 1919-1923 5084 Private J Lemon joined the 9thLancers on 25 September 1914. He served with A Squadron. He was sent to hospital (no date or reason given), and rejoined 11 November 1914, again to Hospital on 7 March 1915 and then to England on 15 March 1915 (no reason given). He rejoined his Regiment on 4 September 1916, was sent to Hospital on 28 September 1916 and temporary Hospital on 2 April 1917 and then Base Hospital on 3 April 1917. He was then sent to England on 12 April 1917. I assume he rejoined his unit sometime after that, as the Roll states he was sent to England sick on 29 March 1919. The second nominal roll (1919-23) states that he rejoined his Regiment on 20 September 1919, and shortly afterwards on 2 March 1920 he was posted to an Experimental Battery Royal Artillery Winterburne Gunners. The Roll then states he was `struck off as an absentee’ on 30 May 1920 rejoining at an unknown later date. No further information on his service is included in our records.

 

It is probably because he went absent, presumably without leave, that he forfeited his medals. I understand that many servicemen had their medals forfeited for similar reasons, but on appeal sometimes they were re-issued. However, as I mentioned at the beginning of this email, the Museum does not hold the service papers of soldiers who served in the Regiment and so I cannot give you any more information about his service, or the reasons why he frequently went to hospital. It is possible that because he served after January 1920 his service papers are still with the Ministry of Defence at Glasgow. If you wish to try to obtain his papers you must make an application in writing to the Ministry of Defence, provide proof that you are next of kin and also pay a fee of around £35.

 

I have checked the 9th Lancers First World War War Diary but Private Lemon is not referred to by name. Should you wish to find out more about the Regiment’s service during the First World War you may find the published history of the Regiment `A History of the 9th Queen’s Royal Lancers 1715-1936’ by Major E W Sheppard of some help. It has recently been reprinted and is available from most good military book sellers. The Royal Artillery Museum may be able to provide you with some information on the Royal Artillery unit he was posted to. Their email address is research@firepower.org.uk

 

With regards

 

Angela Tarnowski

 

Mrs Angela Tarnowski

Curator of the 9th/12th Royal Lancers Museum

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Quote

I called the National Archives at Kew but was told if the search I made via Ancestry provided nothing then I have to assume that his service records were destroyed in the MOD bombing during the Second World War where many records were destroyed.

Ancestry and FindMyPast have all the other rank service records digitised - As the museum have pointed, if a man had served on after WW1 there's chance a record may be with the MOD as later records have not been released.

 

Of the digitised records FindMyPast do have slightly more searchable WW1 service records than Ancestry as they took more time and split some records where multiple records have been mixed together - Ancestry generally only indexed the entire record under the first name they found (and FindMyPast have a far betters search facility)..

 

Craig

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clk

Hi Mark,

 

The service number is pretty close. Does the DoB come close?

image.png.c6a36f074cba17c6200711c89462cb6f.png

 

Regards

Chris

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Mark Lemon

No worries Mike, thanks for doing this.

 

Maybe something else you could guide me on:  I have tried searching for my grandfathers service record through Ancestry but to avail. I called the National Archives at Kew but was told if the search I made via Ancestry provided nothing then I have to assume that his service records were destroyed in the MOD bombing during the Second World War where many records were destroyed.

 

Apart from getting his basic records from Surrey Recruitment Registers 

 

The only information I have is when I wrote to a Angela Tarnowski in 2015. This is what she could tell me:

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Mark Lemon

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks for this.

 

That’s definitely one of his service numbers but the birth year is slightly out as he was born on 9th April 1897. However, it does not surprise me as he first joined in December 1913 putting his birth year as 1895 (as I know many soldiers did similar) and so that would have put him as 16 years and 8 months.

Best regards,

Mark.

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Ron Clifton
On 13/07/2018 at 21:01, kemp52 said:

Thank you very much for the information  you have given.  May i ask if  you think the Penal Servitude was in fact the 88 days detention awarded in the Courts Martial.

No. The minimum length of sentence for penal servitude was three years.

 

Ron

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clk
Posted (edited)

Hi Mark,

 

2 hours ago, Mark Lemon said:

That’s definitely one of his service numbers

 Ah! So it's 315396, not the 315394 in the original post that Andy made. I can see now where Craig got the image from in post #8 - Findmypast record link. The record also says that he had some service with the 5th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment; and gives a postal address of c/o HMP Winchester.

 

2 hours ago, Mark Lemon said:

the birth year is slightly out as he was born on 9th April 1897

The image I posted is from an index of service files still held by the MoD*. Given that the surname, and first and middle name initials match, and the service number is the same, I wonder if there's an input error with the DoB. It would be a £30 gamble though if you wanted to get a copy of the probably heavily weeded file. There is advice on how to go about it here. I understand that as he was born over 110 years ago, there would be no need to provide a copy death certificate. There is a help desk phone number here.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

*These records were held at a different location from those effected by the fire in WW2. They are not held by the National Archives, and are not on Ancestry/Findmypast.

Edited by clk

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Mark Lemon

No worries Mike, thanks for doing this.

 

Maybe something else you could guide me on:  I have tried searching for my grandfathers service record through Ancestry but to avail. I called the National Archives at Kew but was told if the search I made via Ancestry provided nothing then I have to assume that his service records were destroyed in the MOD bombing during the Second World War where many records were destroyed.

 

Apart from getting his basic records from Surrey Recruitment Registers 

 

The only information I have is when I wrote to a Angela Tarnowski in 2015. This is what she could tell me:

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Mark Lemon

Its getting more interesting as this goes on! And It’s well worth a gamble as any further info would be of extreme importance to me.

 

Where would I need to submit my application to? Is it the MOD in Glasgow or a 9th Lancers division somewhere? Forgive me for my ignorance.

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Mark.

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ss002d6252
7 minutes ago, Mark Lemon said:

Its getting more interesting as this goes on! And It’s well worth a gamble as any further info would be of extreme importance to me.

 

Where would I need to submit my application to? Is it the MOD in Glasgow or a 9th Lancers division somewhere? Forgive me for my ignorance.

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Mark.

Application needs to be made to Glasgow.

 

Craig

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