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Malcolm12hl

"Native" Stokers lost with H.M.S. Good Hope

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Malcolm12hl

When H.M.S. Good Hope was sunk with all hands at Coronel on 1 November 1914, she took down with her 26 stokers who are each described on her crew list as "Stoker (Native) and who are all commemorated on the War Memorial at Mumbai/Bombay rather than on any of the three main R.N. memorials in the U.K. (Good Hope was a Portsmouth ship, so most of her crew are listed there).  Most of their names are Anglo-Saxon, although there are some exceptions, but the ones I have checked do not appear when the Register of Seamen's Service is searched on Ancestry.  Does anyone know anything about these men?

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Maureene

There is nothing specific about the above men, or even the Great War, but for general background see the following link

Lascars Maritime History Archive.

 

There is an image on page 91 of the following link of the Mumbai/Bombay memorial

 https://issuu.com/indiandiplomacy/docs/iwm_book

Last Post - Indian War Memorials Around the World  

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

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KevinBattle

According to navalhistory.net, there appear to be 29 stokers of Indian origin (more PC than Native, doncherno)

 

ALEXANDRA, Charles, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
 ALIME, (No first name Listed), Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
ARLAIN, Edwin, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
ASHBY, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
BOULOGNE, Jordan, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
BRAITHWAITE, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
BROWN, James, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
CHANDLER, Norman, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
ELITO, Antoine, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
FREDERICK, Henry, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
GEORGE, Maxim, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
HAMILTON, Charles, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
HAREWOOD, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
HENRY, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
JOSEPHS, Cherribim, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
JOSEPHS, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
JULIETTE, Philip, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
LIVINGSTONE, Percy, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
MATHURIN, John, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
MATTHEWS, Francis, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
MINNO, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
NEWMAN, Henry, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
SOLOMON, Paul, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
TOOSEN, Endovil, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
WEATHERHEAD, Thomas, Stoker (Indian), 301
WELLS, Francis, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
WILFRED, William, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
WILSON, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
YARD, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)

Quite a few seem to have a Portsmouth link

 

No Native or Indian crew shown on Monmouth.

 

Doesn't answer your question but the extra Names might help crack the issue.

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Malcolm12hl

It does indeed look as if they were recruited in the West Indies, but if this was the case it is not clear why they ended up commemorated in Mumbai/Bombay.  These men were not the only non-U.K. additions to the crews of Craddock's cruisers - the Good Hope also took on four Royal Canadian Navy midshipmen in Halifax (where they are commemorated), while the Monmouth crew list shows some stokers with no service numbers described as "ex-S.S. Orduna", apparently recruited from the Pacific Steam Navigation Co. liner of the same name.

 

Good Hope's "Native" stokers are not the only R.N. casualties on the Mumbai memorial, and I wonder if they have attracted any attention from naval historians.  I would be grateful for any further leads forum members might be able to provide.

 

Malcolm

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voltaire60
Posted (edited)

 

    Another possibility is that  "Indian" may not mean ethnically from South Asia but   of the "Indian Marine".  These could be either native or British in the service of the Indian Marine. If so, it would be perfectly possible for them to be commemorated in Bombay (Not bothered what its called this week)-  as that would be the equivalent of "No Known Grave but the Sea" for the more familiar memorials at Plymouth, Portsmouth, Chatham- where the home base is what counts.  Thus, I think  many of the AS names will, indeed turn out to be AS. It would seem to fit with a P and O ship

    I have a  local casualty that I have written up  who was a Leading Stoker on "Good Hope"  but in all the background reading, I had not come across any mention of "Indian" stokers.  And I can't see where this would have happened- Good Hope was a  superseded cruiser of the Reserve but re-commissioned in March 1914-teh Admiralty were stretched for cover and I think the rationale was that she could not be risked in the North Sea-rather, she could go off to the South American station as the Germans would not risk a capital ship that far out, without port facilities or escorts. I know she had her seat trials in the Summer and went off to South America at the beginning of the war.  Presumably Good Hope and the P and O ship must have crossed somewhere.

    I think it does matter whether they are listed as "Native" or "Indian".  The successive Navy Lists have them listed as "Native"- and,interestingly, giving their home base as Portsmouth- suggesting that was where they were engaged by the Grey Funnel Line officially.

 

      There is some information about this  on the IWM "Lives of the First World War", set out below with Thanks and Acknowledgements. Checking a couple of names- start with the most uincommon - shows that Endovil Tooson was, in fact, Eudoxon Toussaint and fro St. Lucia.

 

HMS Good Hope - West Indian 'Native' Stokers

All of the 26 men in this community died aboard HMS Good Hope when it was sunk, with no survivors, at the Battle of Coronel, off the Pacific Coast of Chile, on 1 November 1914. They are all Stokers, have no Royal Navy service numbers and are commemorated on a Memorial in Mumbai, although it is doubtful if any were from India. Some were definitely West Indian because they were listed in correspondence from the Governor of St Lucia to the Admiralty, requesting reimbursement of money paid to their dependents. Since the "Good Hope" visited the West Indies on the way to the South Atlantic, it is likely that they were recruited there. Some records describe them as 'Native' so they were probably black or of mixed race. For many, the only record that I've been able to find is that on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database.

Managed by Bryan Pready 

Edited by voltaire60

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voltaire60

Yes, all from St Lucia and commemorated there:

 

War memorial in Derek Walcott Square, Castries, St. Lucia, West Indies

To the glory of God and the abiding memory of the men of Saint Lucia who lost their lives in the Great War, 1914 - 1918. 36 officers and men of the British West Indies Regiment and 26 men of HMS Good Hope. Cannot find: Lieut Kinnier Ferguson from BWIR. The total number of Good Hope men on the cenotaph matches the number of 'native' stokers, so there seems to be a number of alias names in use. Cannot find: Edwin Arnot, James Brown, George Blackman, Cherubinalis Regis Joseph, Fatal Octave, Eleuthere Solomon.

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Malcolm12hl

Thank you very much Voltaire 60 - there can be no doubt that Good Hope's stokers were the 26 St. Lucia men.  The CWGC description of the Mombay sailor's memorial says that it included Indian, Adenese and East African seamen, but as the aim in establishing the two overseas memorials (the other, in Hong Kong, was for Chinese sailors) I suspect the net was cast wider.  At the end of the day, it says something for the Navy's record keeping that evidence survives for men recruited outside normal channels in a distant colonial outpost for a ship that was lost shortly after with all hands.

 

When I get back to the National Archives I will check to see if there is any evidence in the crew file (created for the purpose of notifying next of kin) in ADM 116 to help unscramble the mismatched names.

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voltaire60
1 hour ago, Malcolm12hl said:

Thank you very much Voltaire 60 - there can be no doubt that Good Hope's stokers were the 26 St. Lucia men.  The CWGC description of the Mombay sailor's memorial says that it included Indian, Adenese and East African seamen, but as the aim in establishing the two overseas memorials (the other, in Hong Kong, was for Chinese sailors) I suspect the net was cast wider.  At the end of the day, it says something for the Navy's record keeping that evidence survives for men recruited outside normal channels in a distant colonial outpost for a ship that was lost shortly after with all hands.

 

When I get back to the National Archives I will check to see if there is any evidence in the crew file (created for the purpose of notifying next of kin) in ADM 116 to help unscramble the mismatched names.

 

   Good luck at Kew- I posted the 2 contributors to "Lives" as well- It may be worth contacting them. They seem to have cracked most of the aliases but not all. It helps me, as I can add for my man that he was LIKELY to have been acting up as PO Stoker- he had passed for it shortly before-and no rank is shown for the 26  from St. Lucia.

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voltaire60
1 hour ago, DavidOwen said:

So does the CWGC memorial and record entry re Toosen need to be revised?

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/3060944/toosen,-endovil/

 

    I expect so. There is another current thread on aliases which may throw some light on this-and throw up more problems as well!!   But, yes, there should be no reason  why a man is not commemorated by his true name and the formula "served as" for the other-as usual. I have a small personal interest in this -one of my neighbours and a good friend is surnamed Toussaint (Tooson)  -and although the name is common enough and he is from Grenada, I think his father was from St. Lucia. Small world.

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voltaire60

   The question of whether these 26 men from St; Lucia are properly commemorated  and whether any further actions are needed is a good one.   The sources for elucidating who they were, if using an alias, may be partially answered from the  Colonial Office file cited below.  Given the strong interest  in  other minorities in the Great War, this is a story that should be better known. As it is, I have never come across  crew being recruited en route - let alone from outside  either RNR/RNVR or MM/ IM. I hope our resident  Grey Funnel Line experts might indicate what terms of service they were on-or whether there was some existing Admiralty + P and O (or other lines) deal in the pre-war years to take up  crew from local sources as and when.

St Lucia. Natives of St Lucia lost in HMS Good Hope : States that Mr ...

Colonial Office: Windward Islands Original Correspondence. Correspondence, Original - Secretary of State. Despatches: St Vincent, 1918 November - December, Governor George Basil Haddon Smith, items St Lucia. Natives of St Lucia lost in HMS Good Hope : States that Mr C Joseph, to whose dependents a gratuity was allotted was not on board Good Hope and is now on HMS Berwick ; asks is payment has

Held by: The National Archives - Colonial Office, Commonwealth and Foreign and Commonwealth Offices
Date: 02 July 1918
Reference: CO 321/302/25
Subjects:

Armed Forces (General Administration) | Caribbean | International | Navy | Race relations

 

 

    The file in ADM may prove interesting (I hope) and I think I may get to it before  Malcolm. Those ship losses files I have seen before have been pretty uninformative, usually just listings that can be released to the Press but I note that the ADM 116 file on Good Hope is a case file, which suggests there may be a bit more meat on the bone.

 

     It also begs the question as to whether these lost men from St. Lucia  were properly recognized for service- but I suspect :other GWF colleagues will be ahead of me on checking the Admiralty (or Merchant Navy/Indian Marine???) lists to see if and where they turn up in the medal rolls.

 

       A big perplexity for me is that as far as I am aware Good Hope was sunk with all hands at Coronel in 1914-  and as far as I am aware, it was the only ship of that name that was one of HM ships. I had wondered whether  Good Hope's logbooks might have been dropped off somewhere en route so that the log for August 1914 might still be extant. Alas, it seems no. But just what the following 2 files are, I have no idea.  So, I will be getting them out at Kew next time. Is it possible they could be the correspondence files for  remaining business for Good Hope-but classed as "log"?  I have not come across log-books  that are after sinking of a ship (Stands to reason-well, to me at least, that  just cannot be) Was there another Good Hope of which I am unaware????

 

St Lucia. Natives of St Lucia lost in HMS Good Hope : States that Mr ...

Colonial Office: Windward Islands Original Correspondence. Correspondence, Original - Secretary of State. Despatches: St Vincent, 1918 November - December, Governor George Basil Haddon Smith, items St Lucia. Natives of St Lucia lost in HMS Good Hope : States that Mr C Joseph, to whose dependents a gratuity was allotted was not on board Good Hope and is now on HMS Berwick ; asks is payment has

Held by: The National Archives - Colonial Office, Commonwealth and Foreign and Commonwealth Offices
Date: 02 July 1918
Reference: CO 321/302/25
Subjects:

Armed Forces (General Administration) | Caribbean | International | Navy | Race relations

 

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voltaire60
Posted (edited)

    Following on from the above, the listing on the St. Lucia War Memorial is out there on Mr. Google's Apparatus.  It has 26 names.  The "Good Hope" St Lucia "community" on  "Lives of the First World War" similarly has 26 names

     Kevin Battle has posted the names of 29 men who seem to be "Indian" on the Good Hope  listing on Naval-History-Net.  But there are 29 names on the list.   I would take a flying guess that the NHN listing comes from ADM 116   but it raises 2 further questions which may take this matter off into new territory and interest GWF members in other areas. Thus:

 

1)  Do the 26 names on the St. Lucia memorial  correlate with the 26 names on "Lives"- that is, just cracking down on which alias goes with which man? Several would appear appear to be transcription errors  (Obviously used the same illiterate prison labour as Ancestry)  

 

2)  The casualty list seems to have 3 extra names : James Arlin, James Brown and George Josephs.  Now, despite likely being on a casualty listing, this may have been done from the last crew list filed by Good Hope that was to hand with Their Lordships when she was sunk. Possible they had left the ship and survived  (Left at Falkland Islands??)  I do not yet know where Good Hope stopped on her last voyage south.  [Note- Josephs  appears to have survived -see the "Discovery" Colonial Office file above- apparently serving on HMS Berwick in 1918]

    If it should run that there were 29 men  from St. Lucia on Good Hope, then some homework may be needed-  this puts the last 3 names into the province of In From the Cold.  

 

From the St. Lucia War Memorial

Christopher Alexander. ∙ Edwin Arnot. ∙ Jordon Bolonge. ∙ James Brown. ∙ George Blackman. ∙ Joseph Brathwaite. ∙ Hamilton Charles ∙ Norman Chandler. ∙ Matthew Francis. ∙ Henry Frederick. ∙ Maxim George. ∙ George Haywood. ∙ Cherubinalis Regis Joseph. ∙ Percy Livingstone. ∙ Joseph Mathurin. ∙ Joseph Mills. ∙ Henry Newman. ∙ Fatal Octave. ∙ Julien Phillip. ∙ Paul Solomon. ∙ Eleuthere Solomon. ∙ Eudoxon Toussaint. ∙ Francis Wells. ∙William Wilfred. ∙ Thomas Weatherhead. ∙ Joseph Yard.

 

From  Naval History Net-  Bold and Italics are on the  St. Lucia Memorial .  The 26 listed on  “Lives” are in red.

ALEXANDRA, Charles, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
 ALIME, (No first name Listed), Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
ARLAIN, Edwin, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
ASHBY, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
BOULOGNE, Jordan, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
BRAITHWAITE, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)

BROWN, James, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
CHANDLER, Norman, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
ELITO, Antoine, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
FREDERICK, Henry, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
GEORGE, Maxim, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
HAMILTON, Charles, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
(=Harewood?)
HAREWOOD, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)

HENRY, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
JOSEPHS, Cherribim, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)

JOSEPHS, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed)
JULIETTE, Philip, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (= Julien Phillip)
LIVINGSTONE, Percy, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
MATHURIN, John, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
MATTHEWS, Francis, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
MINNO, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)(= Joseph Mills???)
NEWMAN, Henry, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
SOLOMON, Paul, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
TOOSEN, Endovil, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
(=Toussaint)
WEATHERHEAD, Thomas, Stoker (Indian), 301

WELLS, Francis, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)

WILFRED, William, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
WILSON, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)
YARD, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)

Edited by voltaire60

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Malcolm12hl

Voltaire

 

It is good to have got you interested in this fascinating little sub-plot to the war at sea.  I am just off for two weeks to sail around the U.K. - thankfully in a cruise ship, not a cruiser, but will pick up the various threads as soon as I get back.  If you do beat me to the NA, please do keep me informed of progress.

 

I have seen the ADM 116 file, but not gone through it properly - it is basically a list of seamen (no officers) lost complied for next of kin purposes, but it does contain a lot of correspondence about individual casualties, so it might contain some gems.

 

Malcolm

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KevinBattle

So, there are 26 (West) Indians / St Lucians on HMS Good Hope; 

26 St Lucians on the St Lucia War Memorial 

26 St Lucians on "Lives of the First World War and

29 Indians on the naval.history.net site.

St Lucia War Memorial has

Christopher Alexander.Edwin Arnot.Jordon Bolonge.James Brown. ∙ George Blackman. ∙ Joseph Brathwaite. ∙ Hamilton Charles [names reversed]∙ Norman Chandler.Matthew Francis. [reversed]∙ Henry Frederick.Maxim George. ∙ George Haywood. [Haywood?]∙ Cherubinalis Regis Joseph.Percy Livingstone. Joseph Mathurin. ∙ Joseph Mills.[Minno] ∙ Henry Newman. ∙ Fatal Octave. ∙ Julien Phillip.Paul Solomon. ∙ Eleuthere Solomon. ∙ Eudoxon Toussaint.[Toosen] ∙ Francis Wells. ∙William Wilfred. ∙ Thomas Weatherhead.Joseph Yard.

 

Indian crew on navalhistory.net as HMS Good Hope:

ALEXANDRA, Charles, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = Christopher Alexander;
ALIME, (No first name Listed), Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = ?????
ARLAIN, Edwin, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = Edwin Arnot; ?
ASHBY, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = ?????
BOULOGNE, Jordan, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = Jordon Bolonge;
BRAITHWAITE, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = Joseph Brathwaite;
BROWN, James, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = James Brown;
CHANDLER, Norman, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = Norman Chandler;
ELITO, Antoine, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = ?????
FREDERICK, Henry, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = Henry Frederick;
GEORGE, Maxim, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = Maxim George;
HAMILTON, Charles, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po)  = Charles Hamilton;
HAREWOOD, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) (=Harewood?) = George Haywood;
HENRY, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = ?????
JOSEPHS, Cherribim, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = Cherubinalis Regis Joseph;
JOSEPHS, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) = ?????
JULIETTE, Philip, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (= Julien Phillip)
LIVINGSTONE, Percy, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = Percy Livingstone;
MATHURIN, John, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = Joseph Mathurin;
MATTHEWS, Francis, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = Matthew Francis?;
MINNO, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) (= Joseph Mills???)
NEWMAN, Henry, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = Henry Newman;
SOLOMON, Paul, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = Paul Solomon;
TOOSEN, Endovil, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) (=Toussaint) Eudoxon Toussiant;
WEATHERHEAD, Thomas, Stoker (Indian), 301 = Thomas Weatherhead;
WELLS, Francis, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = Francis Wells; 
WILFRED, William, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = William Wilfred;
WILSON, George, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = ?????
YARD, Joseph, Stoker (Indian), (no service number listed) (Po) = Joseph Yard;

 

which leaves

Alime - HMS Good Hope - No Match
George Ashby - HMS Good Hope = ?
George Blackman - St Lucia WM = ? was Blackman the same as Ashby?
Antoine Elito - HMS Good Hope = ? Fatal Octave?

Fatal Octave St Lucia WM = ?
George Josephs - HMS Good Hope  = ? brother/relative of Cherubim Regis JosephS

Henry Joseph_
Eleuthere  Solomon - St Lucia WM = ?brother/relative of Paul Solomon
George Wilson - HMS Good Hope = ? could be a relative of Maxim GEORGE, ie Wilson GEORGE ?

 

We have 26 Names several times, so (Good)HOPEfully there should be some way of narrowing down mis-spellings as to whom each man was in reality, with Names corrected.

Anyone else care to chip in? Could the differences be due to men from other Caribbean Islands being recruited in St Lucia?

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voltaire60
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, KevinBattle said:

We have 26 Names several times, so (Good)HOPEfully there should be some way of narrowing down mis-spellings as to whom each man was in reality, with Names corrected.

Anyone else care to chip in? Could the differences be due to men from other Caribbean Islands being recruited in St Lucia?

 

   Well, one has already been eliminated as being alive-so he either did not actually sign on, was discharged (at Rio?)  or jumped ship somewhere (Unlikely if he was serving on another of HM ships in 1918).  I have to look at the files at Kew-as above. I suspect they will answer most of the questions.  My suspicion thus far is that the St.Lucia memorial  is correct and that the problem is tying up some real names with aliases or wrong names.  Somewhere, the answer lies- probably, if taken further, in the St.Lucia newspapers of the time or in correspondence between St. Lucia and Colonial Office, The basic point is that the names on the St.Lucia memorial are likely to be correct both in nomination and for  numbers. 

  (there should be some navy paperwork for George Josephs  somewhere but I will try to see what the ADM116 and the CO321 files say first- and take it from there.)

Edited by voltaire60

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voltaire60
Posted (edited)

  Some further details from TNA, Kew.

 

1) The 2 references to ships logs that I posted above arw incorrect- They appear to be logbooks of some sort of armed trawler operating out of Dundee. "Discovery" does not distinguish which "Good Hope" is which

 

2)  ADM 116 is the "Loss" file of deaths in Good Hope. It is quite a thick volume and shows that  even an in an organisation as well run by Their Lordships, there was chaos. There are telegrams and enquiries all over the place to locate men taken on or off Good Hope wherever she went in 1914. Some notifications of death had to be withdrawn as the men were subsequently found to be alive and serving elsewhere-the grieving (but lucky) families were asked to return the erring notifications -a rare example of where a SAE was enclosed. Some dependents could not be contacted as their notifications were returned by the Post Office.

     As to the men from St. Lucia, they all appear to be listed in the prepared main casualty list issued to the Press at the beginning of December 1914. They are described as "N.C.S"- -I do not,as yet, know what that stands for but it suggests their records of enlistment were held in the UK, as there is no correspondence about chasing any of them through other branches of the service. I hope some old foreign-going salt will enlighten as to what  N.C.S. stands for. It is possible that records still survive in the UK.

 

3)  The reference to CO 321/302/25  is a note from the Admiralty to the Colonial Office  asking about payments made in St. Lucia to the dependents of men lost in Good Hope, as a follow-up to a letter from a Mr. Grindell of 13th May 1916. Of those listed, Cherubim Joseph was known to be alive   and serving on HMS Berwick .[though his name is on the St. Lucia memorial]

 

4)  The main stock of information is in  CO321/289/36-the Discovery reference is at the end, as it is not easily spotted if looking for "Good Hope"

    Grindell's letter of 13th May 1916 tells that messages of condolences to the men  from Bonar Law were well received in St. Lucia. A local fund had raised £35 (ie Not much) for the dependents, which had been distributed.

     There were 2 outstanding cases where the dependents had not been paid out.

i) Norman Chandler of Barbados. His dependent was listed as Mary Charles of Carrington's Village, St. Michaels, Barbados [He is on the St.Lucia memorial]

ii) Henry Frederick-stated as being of Antigua- nothing known of his dependent/s

 

     The listing of names enclosed,with dependents and payments is as follows.

 

1)  CHRISTOPHER  ALEXANDER                                                                 Clementia Mathurin                                       £38/17/-

 

2)  WILLIAM ALFRED                                                                                     Eugenia Marie Rose                                      £15/6/6

 

3)  EDWIN ARNOT                                                                                          Leontine Bobb                                               £15/6/6

 

4)  JORDAN BOULOGNE                                                                               Labruna Joseph                                             £15/6/6

 

5)         Ditto                                                                                                     Fulgence  Boulogne                                       £10/17/1

 

6) MAXIM GEORGE                                                                                        Theresa Alexander                                        £16/10/-

 

7)  PHILLIP JULIEN                                                                                         Madame St.Ange                                            £17/-/-

 

8)            Ditto                                                                                                   Fannie Louis                                                   £8/17/1

 

9) PAUL SOLOMON                                                                                          Eglanise Pierre                                              £25/17/1

 

10) JOSEPH BRAITHWAITE                                                                             Jessica Braithwaite                                        £15/-/-

 

11)                 Ditto                                                                                               Henrietta Ashby                                            £10/17/1

 

12) GEORGE HAYWOOD                                                                                   Carmen Haywood                                         £15/-/-

 

13) HENRY NEWMAN                                                                                        Miriam Newman                                             £25/17/1

 

14) FRANCIS MATTHEW                                                                                   Marie Matthew                                                £15/-/-

 

15) MATHURIN JOSEPH                                                                                    Molsey Devenish                                            £17/-/-

 

16) HAMILTON CHARLES                                                                                   Oculiena Oculie                                             £3/-/-

 

          The amount of £253/12/6 had been paid out,cerified as correct at 7th April 1916

 

Dependents of 'Natives' of the West Indian colonies lost in HMS Good Hope : forwards...

Colonial Office: Windward Islands Original Correspondence. Correspondence, Original - Secretary of State. Despatches relating to St Lucia from Sir George Basil Haddon-Smith Governor, Windward Islands.... Dependents of 'Natives' of the West Indian colonies lost in HMS Good Hope : forwards schedule showing amounts disbursed to dependants in compensation on behalf...

Held by:

The National Archives - Colonial Office, Commonwealth and Foreign and Commonwealth Offices

Date:

06 April 1916

Reference:

CO 321/289/36

Subjects:

Armed Forces (General Administration) | Caribbean | International | Middle East | Navy | Race relations

 

 

 

 

    This suggests that we are in some difficulty with the St. Lucia memorial- and that the total lost may,after all, be more than 26. There seem to be 2 possible sources of further information:

 

a)  St.Lucia archives

 

b)  Admiralty records in UK-if  "N.C.S"  can be cracked. It looks strongly as if there were home records of their engagement held in the UK. The references to Portsmouth look promising.

Edited by voltaire60

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horatio2

NCS = Non-Continuous Service engagement.

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voltaire60

 Thanks Horatio-that crosses with a new thread I just put up.  B*gger as Jackie Fisher would have said (Frequently).

 

       Would you have any idea where records of  Non-Continuous Service  terms or records might be?

 

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horatio2
Posted (edited)

NCS = Non-Continuous Service engagement.

The 1913 KR&AI are here:-  http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/KR&AI/Entry_Quals.html#SECTION III

Officers' cooks and stewards (mainly) entered as NCS, including locaal entered personnel (e.g. Malta, Goa) were normally given official numbers with an 'L' prefix (entries after 1908) and these numbers can be researched online using the ADM 188 Discovery search facility.

Locally entered stokers were invariably entered on 12-year CS engagements with 'K' prefixes. However, it would appear that in this case GOOD HOPE took on some local stokers under NCS terms but they were never allotted official numbers.

Edited by horatio2

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voltaire60
2 hours ago, horatio2 said:

Cooks and stewards (mainly) entered as NCS, including locaal entered personnel (e.g. Malta, Goa) were normally given official numbers with an 'L' prefix (entries after 1908) and these numbers can be researched online using the ADM 188 Discovery search facility.

It would appear that in this case GOOD HOPE took on some local stokers under NCS terms but they were never allotted official numbers.

 

       This most interesting- a world of which I know nothing. My premise in this is that ADM116 for Good Hope does not have any inward correspondence about the St. Lucia men but they are on the formal draft casualty list, which is the main item in the file. Thus, it might be fair to assume that their engagement was already in records held in the UK-and given Their Lordships usual thoroughness, perhaps these records are still there.

    As it is, a further question is whether NCS were entitled to pension or medals.  The question had arisen in 1912, when Mr. Astor asked a question of it in the House to the First Lord (a mr. Churchill-wonder what happened to him) but got a "long-grass" answer. In 1920, the pay rates for NCS were revised, I believe, and "normal" pay scales would apply to those from the West Indies- while  the pay rate for those from the East (lascars) as a shorthand) would only be half that.

      Would we have any idea what NCS terms of engagement were?   There is a ,little sub-universe here that is slightly different through these centennial years to the main stuff about the Afro-Caribbean  men and the Great War-"Black Poppies" etc. Is it possible that there were much larger numbers of West Indians and Indians,etc serving on HM Ships ? Or was the  Good Hope recruitment a one-off? 

 

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horatio2

A search of ADM 188 with the p.o.b. term "West Indies" gives 508 hits; a similar search for "St Lucia" and "Saint Lucia" gives only 6 and 16 hits respectively, most of them well back in the 19th Century. Of course, such a p.o.b. does not mean a 'native' of the West Indies.

NCS terms of engagement were, I understand, up to five years, renewable even after a break of service. Many NCS ratings were taken on for the duration of a commission, e.g. Maltese cooks and stewards could be discharged when a Med Fleet ship returned to UK. As an exception to the 'L' rule described above, Mlatese/Goanese bandsmen were taken on NCS with 'M' (Miscellaneous) numbers.

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seaJane

This is all very fascinating. May be a red herring but I wonder if any of the "spare" names link to Good Hope's surgeon who was from Trinidad (Fernand Louis J M de Verteuil).

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voltaire60
2 hours ago, seaJane said:

This is all very fascinating. May be a red herring but I wonder if any of the "spare" names link to Good Hope's surgeon who was from Trinidad (Fernand Louis J M de Verteuil).

 

      Anything is possible Jane.  It looks like some of the service of men from the West Indies (of whatever descent)  in the Royal Navy (or thereabouts) has slipped under the radar,so to speak.

      Now, the CWGC is different yet again to the St. Lucia memorial and to the list sent over from St. Lucia after payments were made to dependents in 1916 (which the Admiralty reimbursed).  It looks as though,perhaps, CWGC may be asked by Your Humble what docs. they used to establish their name tally.

 

       There has been a deal in recent years about Lascar seamen-  I live not far from where the""Seamen's Mission" was in the east of London, as well as the slightly later  version in Canning Town-not to forget that there were several "Go downs"  used by Lascars. .But service by West Indians seems a bit of mystery- both in the Merchant Navy and,I suspect, in the "support" services-either as Stokers-or in ,say, RNTS-or,rather, it's predecessor-which seems a complete unknown as regards casualties.  

   Below is the CWGC list. Those names that definitely correlate with the St Lucia memorial are in red. So CWGC must have used documentation from somewhere.

 

ALEXANDER

CHARLES

ALIME

 

ASHBY

GEORGE

BOULOGNE

JORDAN

BRAITHWAITE

JOSPEH

CHANDLER

NORMAN

ELITO

ANTOINE

FREDERICK

HENERY

GEORGE

MAXIM

HAMILTON

CHARLES

HAREWOOD

GEORGE

HENRY

JOSEPH

JOSEPHS

GEORGE

JULIEN

PHILLIP

LIVINGSTONE

PERCY

MATHURIN

JOHN

MATTHEWS

FRANCIS

MINNO

JOSEPH

NEWMAN

HENRY

SOLOMON

PAUL

TOOSEN

ENDOVIL

WEATHERHEAD

THOMAS

WELLS

FRANCIS

WILFRED

WILLIAM

WILSON

GEORGE

    

 

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KevinBattle
Posted (edited)

Whilst Fatal Octave remains somewhat of a mystery as possibly being mis-spelt, Octave as a St Lucia surname still exists - https://www.stlucianewsonline.com/breaking-news-two-charged-in-connection-with-tuesdays-deadly-shooting/

 

Throw in native patois and whoever was writing down the names wrote what he thought he heard.

If the person was illiterate, then no correction to the error would be made.

Could he be Vidal or Vital for instance?

Would the St Lucia War Memorial be more accurate?

Where did they get the Names they used that differ?

Edited by KevinBattle

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