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mstowe

Interpretation of "Home Establishment" on military record

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mstowe

I am trying to interpret the term "Home Establishment" on the WW1 RAF military record of a Canadian pilot overseas. It says,

"20.7.18 Home Establishment

20.8.18 Midlands" [UK]

I have a photograph of him *in Canada* at that date. His record says nothing about "on leave," so does "Home Establishment" mean "home on leave"?

Thanks.

 

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MaxD

"Home Establishment" referred to the unit that "owned" him - Home Establishment referring to anything that wasn't overseas which was (initially) FF for Field Force.  Because the next posting was in UK there was no need to repeat the HE.  His leave in Canada is in a sense unrelated.

 

Max

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mstowe

Thanks, so to clarify, by "wasn't overseas" do you mean not overseas in Canada or not overseas in the UK? Could Home Establishment be a Canada location/unit?

What length of time would a soldier (pilot in this case) be given for leave back in Canada?

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MaxD

Home Establishment meant a unit in the UK.  I find no record of a RAF unit in Canada in mid 1918.  Don't know about leave I am afraid but as the war was still on, how sure are you that he was in Canada in July/August 1918?

 

More generally, it is usually better to be looking at the original record rather than a couple of small extracts, elements of a record often make more sense when cross checked with other parts of the record.  If the record is on line, perhaps you could post the  details  or alternatively scan it and post it on the thread.

 

Max

 

 

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Stoppage Drill

The abbreviation "RHE" has been in use until comparatively recently, and stands for "Reverts to Home Establishment." It means being posted back to UK, and was popularly used, as well as officially, "I was RHE'd in January".

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MaxD
Posted (edited)

Gary - that is indeed a very helpful link which may have solved the puzzle directly.  In Canada for training, then to UK (ie HE - as per Stoppage Drill) and on to somewhere in the Midlands.  

 

It would be interesting to see what comes before the 20 Jul 1918 entry, that might have held the clue (my point about seeing the original record). 

 

Max

Edited by MaxD
completeness

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mstowe
8 hours ago, MaxD said:

Home Establishment meant a unit in the UK.  I find no record of a RAF unit in Canada in mid 1918.  Don't know about leave I am afraid but as the war was still on, how sure are you that he was in Canada in July/August 1918?

 

More generally, it is usually better to be looking at the original record rather than a couple of small extracts, elements of a record often make more sense when cross checked with other parts of the record.  If the record is on line, perhaps you could post the  details  or alternatively scan it and post it on the thread.

 

Max

 

 

I am 100% certain, I have a few photos of him in Canada, dated "Summer of 1918." It was early July as I believe he was back in the UK by the end of July. 

I will post the record.

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mstowe
Posted (edited)

This is the entirety of what is on his record, believe me, this is the only text in his entire GB RAF record that says anything about timeline. He has no Canadian record, only GB AIr. I know the units he was with from other documents, but re his specific timeline at this time in 1918, this is all there is. The UK archive have sent me pages from the 82 Squadron diary, but they left out the most important dates!!...leading me to have to make another expensive (and long, 30 days) wait for them to look it up again. Frustrating at anything.

 

Does this clip help?

GB_RAF_record_NM_clip.jpg.f3ae0cd3e5f3787b80079e2731dd8bdf.jpg

 

Edited by mstowe

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Waggoner

Interesting. I was looking at another Canadian officer who was seconded to the RFC. He had also been signal corps, then went engineers when returbed to the CEF. What is the name of your man?

 

All the best,

 

Gary 

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MaxD

That piece of his record is quite clear.  He is posted from 82 Squadron in the Expeditionary Force (EF) ie France to Home Establishment to the Midlands Area to 12 Group where (and this is guesswork that I hope someone will confirm/correct) he is to be re-trained on another type of aircraft.  12 Group at that time were a training organisation.

 

As he was in Canada prior to this then he must have been on leave as you thought previously, between leaving France and posting to England.  Note that the dates relate to the paperwork, lost somewhere is previous paperwork that shows what he was doing and where before leaving France prior to July 1918.

 

Max

 

Half time

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mstowe
Posted (edited)

Yes, is does seem clear, but I'm trying to reconcile the dates with the other things I know. Another record says he was with 82 only until July 1, 1918. The 82 diary shows him as not around after June 22. So trying to determine the timing of being in Canada, and dating the photographs. I am tending to believe now that Canada must have been between 21.7 and 20.8. I know he attended the memorial in Canada of another pilot who had died on June 26, and that likely wouldn't have been until July. But the time between Jun 22 and Jul 21 is unaccounted for.

Edited by mstowe

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MaxD

The dates shouldn't be interpreted as the dates on which he moved.  Even if he left 82 Sqn on 22 Jun on leave to Canada he was still officially "on their books" until he comes "on the books" of the next unit, 12 Group.  Much the same applies if he joined 12 Group and then went on leave.

 

Whatever, if this is all the records you have, then what he was doing and when can only be a matter of speculation.

 

Max

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Errol Martyn
6 hours ago, mstowe said:

This is the entirety of what is on his record, believe me, this is the only text in his entire GB RAF record that says anything about timeline. He has no Canadian record, only GB AIr. I know the units he was with from other documents, but re his specific timeline at this time in 1918, this is all there is. The UK archive have sent me pages from the 82 Squadron diary, but they left out the most important dates!!...leading me to have to make another expensive (and long, 30 days) wait for them to look it up again. Frustrating at anything.

 

Does this clip help?

GB_RAF_record_NM_clip.jpg.f3ae0cd3e5f3787b80079e2731dd8bdf.jpg

 

 

Mstowe,

 

Where documents are not available from TNA by way of a download then I would recommend you look at using the services of Lee Richards to photograph what you require (Google ARCRE for details). Much cheaper than anything TNA offer or the cost of long distance travel, and excellent quality, too.

 

Errol

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mstowe
3 hours ago, MaxD said:

The dates shouldn't be interpreted as the dates on which he moved.  Even if he left 82 Sqn on 22 Jun on leave to Canada he was still officially "on their books" until he comes "on the books" of the next unit, 12 Group.  Much the same applies if he joined 12 Group and then went on leave.

 

Whatever, if this is all the records you have, then what he was doing and when can only be a matter of speculation.

 

Max

  

Yes, I see. So right now, I could say with relative certainly that he probably showed up in Midlands for the first day of his new job on Aug 22. Before that, he was in Canada for some period of at least a month after Jun 22 (he was in England on that day for sure), as that's how long it took to get there and back. He was at an event in Canada in July. If I ignore the HE reference on the record, it works out.

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mstowe
7 hours ago, Waggoner said:

Interesting. I was looking at another Canadian officer who was seconded to the RFC. He had also been signal corps, then went engineers when returbed to the CEF. What is the name of your man?

 

All the best,

 

Gary 

I'd rather not say, researching for a client. I have wondered where the signal corps thing came from, he enlisted at the Toronto RFC depot and hadn't even been to signalling school yet this appeared on his record. Maybe this was who (as Max put it) "owned him." Is that possible? (same with your man)

 

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mstowe
1 hour ago, Errol Martyn said:

 

Mstowe,

 

Where documents are not available from TNA by way of a download then I would recommend you look at using the services of Lee Richards to photograph what you require (Google ARCRE for details). Much cheaper than anything TNA offer or the cost of long distance travel, and excellent quality, too.

 

Errol

 

Thanks for the tip, just checked him out. Ya, I need someone to just go and look at the 82 Squadron diary again for this period and confirm his "last seen" date. That would be most helpful.

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MaxD

You don't have to ignore the HE on his record.  He was posted from the EF to UK, thus HE.  Where exactly he physically was is unrelated.

 

Max

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Waggoner

This is the lnk to the service records of the officer I mentioned - ?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B4023-S038

He started with the “Signal Training Depot” and moved on from there.

 

All the best,

 

Gary

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pierssc

mstowe, have you tried the casualty forms at https://www.casualtyforms.org/ ?

 

If so, then read no further.  If not, it is worth a look.

 

If a record for your man exists, it should show his movements, leave dates etc while part of the expeditionary force ("casualty" in this context does not mean he was wounded sick or injured).  If he was still officially with 82 Squadron when he went on leave it should have his dates there, including the date he left 82.  If a record exists but doesn't show him going on leave any visit to Canada must have been after that.  The record won't cover any activity after he left the EF.

 

Don't forget to check there isn't a second page of the record by increasing the record URL by one digit upwards .  Remember there are usually two dates quoted, one being the date something happened, and the other being the date it was recorded.

 

Cheers

Piers

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mstowe
10 hours ago, pierssc said:

mstowe, have you tried the casualty forms at https://www.casualtyforms.org/ ?

Piers

Thank you very much for this link! I have 60 pages of military documents but not this one. He is indeed there, one page, seems to be only for the period he was with the 82. This tells me one important detail, he couldn't have been in Canada before late July.

CasualtyList_clip.jpg.e6d7ba094213e175050f5286d7f6798f.jpg  

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